Looking At New Hybrids...

ddolat said:
My understanding is that both the Civic and Prius use their electric motors to generate electricity and that this process is called regenerative braking. Therefore I don't believe the Prius is anymore technologically advanced than the Civic. As for the hybrid Accord, it only gets 29/73 mpg, which is not a very significant gain compared to other hybrids on the market and is only 8 mpg better than a regular V6 Accord.
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Regenerative breaking is a process in which the kinetic energy of the car while moving is recovered into electricty, then stored to the battery to power the car later. ALL and ONLY Toyota hybrids has this feature so far I think. This process was previously only used on large vehicles like buses due to the large amount of energy that can be recovered (due of their weight, Ke=(1/2)MV^2).



Electricty motors does not generate electricty, it still depend on the gas engine to generate electricty to store in the battery, then power the electric engine. The vehicle will then be able to draw power from either of the engines. That is the key concept of "Hybrid". Of course, there are 2 or more forms of hybrid passenger vehicles running around, but they still revolve around this. The key difference between the form of hybrid of civic and prius lies on which engine is used when. Hybrids from GM trucks are questionable in this sense.... I'll stop here before I go too far.



That said, accord, highlander, and RX hybrids seem to focus more on the performance, like ddolat pointed out, so it's not exactly fuel friendly.



I just paid 3.159/gal this afternoon..... maybe I should also get in line for the TDI.
 
SSQ said:
ALL and ONLY Toyota hybrids has this feature so far I think.
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Great advice and info, SSQ, BUT no, Toyota is NOT the only maker to use regen braking. Honda, in fact, utilizes regenerative braking in at least the Civic Hybrid and has been for a while. Haven't checked the other models, but I don't see why they wouldn't.



From Honda:



"Battery Pack"



"Electrical power for the IMAâ„¢ System is stored in a bank of nickel-metal hydride (Ni-MH) batteries. These batteries are recharged through regenerative braking, which converts the vehicle's forward momentum into electrical energy. So they never need to be plugged in."
 
ooops.... haven't paid much attention to hybrids recently. Back when there was only a few hybrids on the market and nobody wanted them was when I did the reading.



Oh yeah, how about that Civic GX (?), the natural gas one....
 
what do you mean by gutless? lacks power?



I have absoutly no clue about the car, would love to know more about them.
 
There are about 3 very overworked hamsters under the hood. They are also asthmatic and have misplaced their inhalers! OK, kidding aside. The Civic GX's are really slow and really don't have a power band. We had one in the fleet when I used to work for a living.:) CNG also takes up lots of space in the trunk and requires a high pressure "pump" to be installed at your home. The hybrid is the better way for sure.
 
SpoiledMan said:
There are about 3 very overworked hamsters under the hood. They are also asthmatic and have misplaced their inhalers! OK, kidding aside. The Civic GX's are really slow and really don't have a power band. We had one in the fleet when I used to work for a living.:) CNG also takes up lots of space in the trunk and requires a high pressure "pump" to be installed at your home. The hybrid is the better way for sure.
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Gotcha :up . Hopefully this technology will get better like the hybrids did.
 
Another problem with the CNG is that the tank is under HIGH pressure and when filling the contents heat up(expand) and to completely fill the tank is an overnight process. What happens is, the fill slows way down after a certain point and the contents of the tank cool(contract) and more gas is "allowed" to enter the tank. Even though the tank took up almost all of the trunk, the cruise range was around 200 miles and you would need a dedicated fill station to keep from needing a tow truck to get you home.
 
The October 05 issue of Consumer Reports has a good report on Fuel Economy (page20). They state, "Our road tests show that hybrid vehicles, especially, get fewer miles per gallon than claimed." The Honda Civic sedan claims EPA city of 48 mpg and actually got only 26 mpg, a 46% shortfall.



For fuel economy data on over 300 vehicles visit consumerreports.org, click on autos then fuel economy. Data is free from Sept. 7th through Nov 2nd. (site not updated yet.)
 
SSQ said:
ooops.... haven't paid much attention to hybrids recently. Back when there was only a few hybrids on the market and nobody wanted them was when I did the reading.
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Ah, I see. Yeah, crazy how these technologies change. Remember when you had to plug in your electric car? The grocery store by my house has parking spots with electrical outlets in the front of them, specifically for plug-in electric/hybrid cars. Now nobody has those. :grinno:
 
Have you done the math? In order to break even due to the extra cost of a hybrid over the standard same car according to edmunds.com and other researchers you have to either

A) Drive 65,000 miles a year

or

B) Gas has to cost over $8.00 gallon



Hybrids DO NOT save you money, they are fine if you want to conserve for environmental reasons but just to buy one because you think you will save money you are grossly mistaken.



Want to really save and stick it to the oil companies? Buy a diesel and then for about $2,000 add the ability to burn used vegetable oil (www.greasecar.com) which you get for FREE! If I had a diesel I would be doing this in a flash!
 
Leo, with the tax credits that are now available and gas prices what they are I'd like to see what math you're using.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Leo, with the tax credits that are now available and gas prices what they are I'd like to see what math you're using.
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It's doesn't seem too difficult to to understand in my opinion. Hybrids costs about $3,000 to $6,000 more than a conventional gasoline or diesel vehicle and they get marginally better gas mileage. In some cases, i.e the Civic Hybrid, it actually gets less mpg than some non-hybrids. The Civic Hybrid gets 25 mpg overall in CU's 10/2005 tests while the Volks Passat GL5 TDI gets 28. Even Toyota's Avalon 3.5 liter v6 gasoline gets 22 mpg overall in those same real life tests.



Most hybrids put into service before 12/31/2005 qualify for a one time "clean fuel" deduction, not a tax credit. (Note that deductions are worth a lot less than credits.) Hybrid vehicles put into service on or after 1/1/2006 may be entitled to a tax credit based on their fuel economy, estimated fuel savings, and other factors. While that legislation is not yet approved it proposes $1,700 to $3,000 in tax credits.



Many buyers of hybrids are startled by the actual mileage being so poor. Instead of designing hybrids for economy some manufacturers have opted to design for more performance. Few vehicles come close to delivering on their EPA estimate and this is even more true with hybrids. They are, as a group, delivering mileage 19 mpg below their city EPA estimate. In the example of our Honda Civic, the EPA estimate was 48 mpg city and it delivers 26 mpg in actual city driving tests, 22 mpg short of their EPA estimate.



So you wind up paying something like $3,000 - $6,000 more for a hybrid, of which you might get a one time $500 tax deduction now or perhaps a $1,700 - $3,000 tax credit if you buy it next year and if the pending legislation gets approved as it stands. Then you find that along with poor performance and handling due to the heavy batteries, you are getting mileage that doesn't come close to what was advertised.



Think I'll pass on this technology for now.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Leo, with the tax credits that are now available and gas prices what they are I'd like to see what math you're using.
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Go to www.edmunds.com and you will see all the data. There are other reports on the web also confirming this data. This report was widely published a few weeks ago and reported in the news. Even with gas prices at $4.00 it is not enough, they need to be at over $8.00 to break even if you drive 15K per year.



Next time you see a hybrid ad look to see if they claim you will save money, you won't find that anywhere in the ad. They just show you some marginally better fuel mileage figures. And also, hybrids get lousy highway mileage, they are only better in the city.
 
Thanks guys. I had no idea real world mileage was actually so bad. Looks like it's cheaper in the long run(possible battery replacement) to just get the Civic you'd like to have.
 
Dftowel has it right on. Hybrids are a feel good purchase, (just not for me) and not a good financial purchase. In the real world, nobody gets the numbers that the manufacturers claim and the battery will be 6,000 to 7,000 to replace. The sales of the Prius are good because it looks like a hybrid, but the honda hybrids that look normal are not selling well because they don't advertise how "green" its driver is. Toyota loses money on each Prius it sells, so you know they can't do that forever. One more thought, if you want to save the environment then buy a smaller house so that you won't have to heat and cool as much house.
 
NiMH battery technology is really not all that good either, IMO. After some use NiMH batteries capacity to hold a charge lessens. While a total failure will be replaced during 8 years by Fed edict, what happens when your batteries only hold half of their original charge capacity? What is the economy when your gas engine needs to run more often trying to charge fading batteries?



I remain skeptical.
 
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