List of water based leather conditioners/cleaners?

[imported_Bence]

Which are the best products for rehydrating?



On my Daimler Double Six I've used AutoGlym Leather Care, but automotive leather is not like that any more. What's the general opinion on the 1Z Leather Care (because it contains oils and carnauba wax)?

 

[steelwind101]

Bence i have reported extensivly on 1Z leather care on here! It acutally leaves Nuba wax on the seats, its no benefit coated leather nor nautral exposed type leather.



Honestly i would avoid it though some people like the looks, i dont believe it has any benefits.



Here is a post where i put a photo of the 1Z leather care bottle for discussion of the product:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-de.../120192-suggested-leather-care-vw-passat.html



There are few more posts where its mentioned, Yakky quite likes it IIRC.

 

[Junebug]

Although I've never tried it, I think LM protection creme is probably good stuff based on Judy's and David Fermani's posts on it. I do have a budget and 50 bucks a bottle is a bit steep, but, I'm assuming it's worth it and probably a little goes a long way. I've got 1Z and it's nothing special, it does leave something on the leather, but I'm concerned it just like fly paper to dirt. I've tried Zaino and like the smell but there again, I'm wondering how much "protection" does it give.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and order LM...

 

[Roger Koh]

Which are the best products for rehydrating?

===





The best products for rehydrating are those that has the most effective surfactantcy and able to soften cardboard stiff leathers.



And you need to replenish the original fat, oil and water (Fatliquor) thereafter.



With Hydrating and Fatliquoring combination you would have the best strengthening and softening effect on the leather with suppleness.



You need to compare what I recommend (Hydrogen-Bonding system) versus Stuffing system (Leatherique / Leather Master / Fenice / Lexol).





The champion of the Stuffing System versus the Hydrogen-Bonding System!





Ask for samples and test it out!









Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[Bunky]

===





The best products for rehydrating are those that has the most effective surfactantcy and able to soften cardboard stiff leathers.



And you need to replenish the original fat, oil and water (Fatliquor) thereafter.



With Hydrating and Fatliquoring combination you would have the best strengthening and softening effect on the leather with suppleness.



You need to compare what I recommend (Hydrogen-Bonding system) versus Stuffing system (Leatherique / Leather Master / Fenice / Lexol).





The champion of the Stuffing System versus the Hydrogen-Bonding System!





Ask for samples and test it out!









Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

Stuffing systems? What does that mean?

 

[Roger Koh]

Stuffing system means rejuvenator (conditioner or call it whatever you like) is introduced into the leather structure either by heat or physical forces (rubbing) so that the rejuvenator can fills these and inter-fibrillary spaces to lubricate them thus soften it.



In most cases the leather finish is oily, waxy or greasy – and need to be clean off with detergency.





Hydrogen-Bonding system works by Cationic (+) protein fibers bonding with Anionic (-) Fatliquor (fat, oil and water - as used in any tannery).



When leather structure is acidified below its iso-electric point (leather pH neutral) is shift Cationic (+).



All other leather constituents including the most sensitive Fatliquor are Anionic (-).



Once the anionic charge fats and oils hydrogen-bond with the fibers, the water that encircle these fats and oils breaks free and thus also carries other foreign particulates to the leather surface.



These evaporates excess water create the breathing space for the leather.



Thus leather when rejuvenated by hydrogen-bonding system breathes better than stuffing system.





Ask for samples to experience it yourself.





With all the time, money and trouble - it is the result that counts ...not just talk!





Can the tensile strength of leather be strengthen?



Can the leather be more supple?



The health of the leather is in its suppleness.



We are talking about the leather STRUCTURE.



And that depends on the "life-blood of leather" - Fatliquor the generic tannery stuff!







Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[David Fermani]

Stuffing system means rejuvenator (conditioner or call it whatever you like) is introduced into the leather structure either by heat or physical forces (rubbing) so that the rejuvenator can fills these and inter-fibrillary spaces to lubricate them thus soften it.



In most cases the leather finish is oily, waxy or greasy – and need to be clean off with detergency.

Hi Roger! - This explanaton sounds alot like Leatherique. Any similarities?

 

[imported_DetailDan]

Lets see those pictures showing why fatliquor is important for coated leather.

 

[Roger Koh]

Hi Roger! - This explanaton sounds alot like Leatherique. Any similarities?

===





You are spot-on!



Stuffing system works but first you need to sweat it out!



Setback is creating the heat in cold climate, that’s first.



Second, need to clean-off the sticky mess.



Third, anything that is stuff-in will eventually leak out, when temperature reach beyond the initial threshold!



Fourth, retard the leather the ability to breathe.



Yet it’s still one of the world best system of the 20th Century.





In the 21st Century, Hydrogen-Bonding system uses leather chemistry for ease of application with far better result.



First, it does not depend on the weather or heat or elbow strength.



Second, a low pH 3.3 Hydrator is the driving forces to relax and separates the stiff leather structure, rather than depending on winding up the windows for a sauna effect (far more risky to foul up those high-tech electronics).



If the hydrator acting as preconditions does not penetrate, simply abandon the project (save the agony time of a great hopeless expectation including cleaning up the oily, greasy messes with the stuffing system).



Third, if the leather structure is able to be hydrated, then fatliquoring will not go to waste and you can assure of its intended objective – to strengthen and soften the leather for suppleness.





Question is do we need to use detergency to remove the access fats and oils that stays on the leather finishes.



Why clean off what we pay to do the job.



Simply drive the anionic charge fats and oils in again!



How?



Create more Hydrogen-Bonding sites!



What we need is to acidify the protein leather further with a pH 3.0 acidifier rinse.



Once the acidifier is sprayed it will shift the protein fibers more Cationic (+).



Now you will see that the anionic charge oils and fats hydrogen-bond with the cationic leather fibrils (the milky fats and oils disappear) leaving the leather finish with a squeaky feel.





Better experience these phenomenal yourself first hand with available samples!





Why take the words from someone else!





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[judyb]

It is difficult to condense our full training into brief snippets of information but for those of you who are interested here are a few of the basic principles about leather:



Leather is the tanned skin/hide of any animal (fish, elephant, frog, cow etc.). Once the skin/hide has been through the tanning process it can be called leather but is in a rather unuseable state and if not kept wet dries out to a stiff board like sheet. All 'natural' oils and fats are removed from the skin during the tanning process.



At this stage the leather is put through the retanning process where fat liquors are introduced and the correct moisture level is also achieved. These 2 combined give the leather its flexibility and suppleness. The fat liqours are good in the leather for about 20 - 30 years (not an exact length of time) and do not migrate from the leather during that time (except under some very rare circumstances which is then treated in a specific manner to resatabilise it). What does alter in the leather is the 'moisture' content and when tanners speak about 'conditioning' leather this is what they are referring to (not the replacement of oils and waxes). It is important therefore that leather is kept correctly hydrated with moisture to allow the leather to remain flexible and supple. This can be done with water based products and there is no reason or neccessity to use oils and wax based products to 'condition' or 'feed' the leather. This is particualrly true of pigment coated leathers (as in cars) that cannot absorb oils and waxes through their top finish anyway. As with anything in leather it is a balance that is needed. Oversoaking with water will result in the fibres becoming distorted and then when they are dried will not shrink back into their previous state or position and so become hard and brittle.



Once leather has been through the retanning or fat liquoring process they move on to the finishing stage - this is determined by the quality of the hide. There is a strange anomoly in the leather industry that the more you do to a hide the less it costs. Hides with little damage are used for top level upholstery and very little may be done to finish the leather so producing aniline and other full grain leathers. Hides with a lot of damage (insect bites, barbed wire damage, scar tissue etc.) are usually buffed to remove this damage and then used for pigment coated leathers. These days split leathers (leather is split 2 or 3 times during the tanning process) are also used by bonding finishes to the leather.

It is the thickness of the finished coating on leather that detemines whether it can be classed as leather or not

If the leather has a surface coating, the mean thickness of this surface layer, however applied has to be 0.15mm or less (BS 2780:1983)



So leather is leather and is basically the same product from whatever it is produced. It is the surface coatings that we are dealing with when we are cleaning and restoring and not the leather itself.



Some leathers have very little surface coating and are very porous (to moisture and oils) but in these cases we would be trying to prevent the absorption of oils into the leather as they can cause an inbalance which would then have to be rectified. Body oils can also cause many problems with leather of this type leaving unsightly patches which are expensive to fix. Why then would we want to add more oils to the leather?



Pigment coated leather (as in most cars) needs to be kept clean. It is dirt and body oils together with abrassion that break down the pigment coating and then will begin to deteriorate the leather itself so it is crucial to stop this from happening - this can be done with protectors and regular cleaning. If oils are used on pigment coated leather (these have a layer of pigment - paint- and a clear coat finish) they cannot be absorbed into the leather the same way that moisture can and so sit on the surface and will only serve to attract more dirt so having a detrimental affect.



The furniture industry see a far more varied array of finishes than the car market so provide many more challenges to the leather specialist to solve and we are constantly updating techniques and products to suit an ever changing market.

 

[Riktar]

@Roger

how would one go about in order to obtain these samples?

 

[Roger Koh]

Lets see those pictures showing why fatliquor is important for coated leather.

Perforated panels and cracks that becomes absorbent.

#1

Cracks too soon after finish repairs!

Heat cures repairs cause the fatliquors to dries up and feels stiffer.

It is recommended to fatliquor prior to heat repairs to maintain suppleness of the leather, otherwise the repair is short-lived with disappointed customer when the facts are revealed to the reasons of the “crack-too-soon� phenomenal.

#2

This is a common section you see the most damages to the FINISH where the stiff and dried leather is further stressed and flexed.

It is highly recommended to HYDRATE and FATLIQUOR to return the leather strength and suppleness so that further stresses and flexes does not cause further cracks.

If there is a desire to repair the finish cracks – it is recommended that further IMPREGNATION is necessary to strengthen these weak over-stretch panels.

#3

See the transparent cling wrapper and rag?

The rag is to be saturated with Hydrator and subsequent Fatliquor and wrapped up to prevent evaporation.

The longer it dwells (overnigh) the softer and stronger the leather tensile rip resistance strength will be.

#4

Again, leather rejuvenating is all about the exposed leather structure or perforated panels where fatliquors evaporates from there.

#5

All coated leather autos after 3 years of normal usage requires some sort of leather structure rejuvenating care besides repairs to the finishing.

#6

These pictures show the importance of fatliquoring for “damaged� or perforated coated leathers.



It is simpler than the 20th Century best, without the heat element.



Direct Hydrate with direct Fatliquoring with direct enhancing the hydrogen bonding without the greasy or oily messes ready for IMPREGNATION and Refinishing.





It is now your privilege to show us how these 21st Century samples works!





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[judyb]

Once pigment is damaged it needs replacing not 'fatliquoring'!!!

Adding things to cracked pigment at this stage could inhibit the adhesion of the new pigment or finish especially things that contain oils or waxes.

 

[Junebug]

There are 2 schools of thought here, who do you believe - Judy or Roger, well, after watching a show or leather the other night on one of those science channels I'm going with Judy.

 

[David Fermani]

Roger / Judy - Thanks for your insight into leather care. I have a question that is a little off topic, but could somehow intertangle within this discussion. I have a client with a new Rolls Royce Phantom that I inspected yesterday. It has gray aniline leather and somehow a passenger's brown belt dye transferred to the rear seat. I tried LM stong cleaner without any success. I realize the lighter colored leather has been essentially stained by a darker one, but are there any alternatives (besides recoloring) that can be done to correct this problem? Thanks -

 

[todd@bsaw]

There are 2 schools of thought here, who do you believe - Judy or Roger, well, after watching a show or leather the other night on one of those science channels I'm going with Judy.

I as well. Judy has always been a great contributor to this forum and made me rethink the way that I treat leather on clients cars.



Following Judy's school of thought, I only care for automotive leather by cleaning with my steam cleaner being careful not to damage the pigment. The way I see it (in my experiences) it cleans all the damaging oils out of the leather and rehydrates it. The result is a clean surface and a soft and supple leather that doesn't [seem] to need anything else.



The only thing I'm looking for is a type of protectant that isn't going to reintroduce those oils and waxes I just removed with my steam cleaner.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

Who has tried the LTT products? Im thinking about placing an order.

 

[Roger Koh]

I have a client with a new Rolls Royce Phantom that I inspected yesterday. It has gray aniline leather and somehow a passenger's brown belt dye transferred to the rear seat. I tried LM stong cleaner without any success. I realize the lighter colored leather has been essentially stained by a darker one, but are there any alternatives (besides recoloring) that can be done to correct this problem? Thanks -

===



Show us a picture!



You may need Leather Prep either pH 7.7 or a leather-safe version pH 4.4 if the aniline leather is absorbent.



In addition a pH 10.3 Leather Bleach Cream is an option only if the aniline leather has a NON-ABSORBENT topcoat.





Pick up the samples and try it out!



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®

 

[judyb]

I have a client with a new Rolls Royce Phantom that I inspected yesterday. It has gray aniline leather and somehow a passenger's brown belt dye transferred to the rear seat. I tried LM stong cleaner without any success. I realize the lighter colored leather has been essentially stained by a darker one, but are there any alternatives (besides recoloring) that can be done to correct this problem? Thanks -

Hi David

If this is a true aniline leather (one that is absorbent) then the dye will have soaked into the leather itself (as aniline dye does during the original finishing process). If this is the case then the dye is permanent and any type of 'cleaners' will not remove it as they will only clean from the surface of the leather. Unfortunately the dye cannot be removed from the leather itself (there are processes that can be used on pigment coated leather) and unlike pigment coated leather you cannnot recolour in the same way as you would need to use dyes and not pigments - dyes are transparent and so the 'damaged' areas will always show through. You can use pigments to recolour but this will change the leather from an aniline into a pigement coated.



If the aniline leather has a clearcoat finish and is not absorbent (or only has a slow absorbency rate) then you could try a stronger cleaner or an alcohol cleaner as the dye from the belt may be sitting in the finish instead of the leather itself. It may also be possible to recolour this using a very light coat of pigment to disguise the damage but you would have to use a very intensely coloured pigment system for this to work.



Please also offer advice to your client on fluorocarbon protectors as these will help to inhibit this type of problem form happeningn again - this is crucial on all aniline style leathers.



Hope this helps

 

[Striker]

OK guys, let's see some more water based product listings. I'm sure it would be beneficial to the whole community if we could see in black and white the products we're looking for.



Thank you.