Let's hear from the "Hacks"

Just to clarify ... it is my opinion that one who does a great job detailing, one that can read paint, knows the appropriate tools for the job ... that is a technician.



A Pro would have all the necessary insurance, licensing, taken the training, spends time in continuing education, does follow proper requirements on discharge, labor laws, etc.



I am not slighting anyone's ability to perform a service, just the “legitimacy� under which it is done.



I think one of the issues here is that anyone can define detailing, can grab the proverbial bucket & hose and call themselves a detailer. I know it is more than that … but not always.



For the pro, I think you need to be the total package. A "hack" with the right insurance and no training is till the hack. A guy who can color sand may not be a pro ... in my opinion, if not the full package, then a symbol of the issues associated with this industry.



As a guy who spends a lot of money to get compliant with all the labor and regulations, all I want is a level playing field. I don’t want to go down the whole certification conversation, just sayin’ …



jim
 
Licensing, insurance, training & discharge has zero to do with being a Pro or a legitimate entity within the industry. I know of several Pros that don't follow this criteria...
 
Interesting thread, I suppose, but I think that we're just arguing semantics here. A pro is easy to define (IMO, of course): one who is licensed, insured and does detailing for money. A "hack" is a bit more murky. I would say a hack is someone who presents themselves as a "pro" but really isn't it. In addition, I would say that someone who does poor work, regardless of whether or not they are a "pro," would be a hack.



On a side note, Jim (Relaited), it's nice to see you posting here without seeing the "$" symbol or the word "reclamation." There may be hope for you yet ;-)
 
David Fermani said:
Licensing, insurance, training & discharge has zero to do with being a Pro or a legitimate entity within the industry. I know of several Pros that don't follow this criteria...
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Well, it depends on what your definition of a "pro" is. By my criteria, the people you describe above are not "pros." You seem to be defining a "pro" as someone who is very knowledgeable about detailing and does good work. While that's an acceptable definition of a "pro" it's not mine. Oh, what murky waters :buffing:
 
Bostonsfavson said:
A pro is easy to define (IMO, of course): one who is licensed, insured and does detailing for money.
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So, anyone who meets these requirements you'd allow to detail your own/a friend's car? I'd say 99.999% of the detailers out there have these credentials.
 
I call myself a "hack" but only in context to the more experienced and complete vehicle turnarounds and/or details posted here. (BufferBarry's recent post on the exceptional Chrysler 300C turnaround comes to mind). However, I usually will only except 1 car per day (I do this part time) and state that I need as need the car for a day. Now to be truthful, some clients only want a 1 step detail or a specific issue addressed (interior, etc). Also, the majority of my clients have daily drivers and can only spend so much for a detail. I am a perfectionist though and will usually go the extra step so that the detail meets my standards. I have not perfected wetsanding (on a car other than my own) or rotary work and choose to stay with my Cyclo.
 
David Fermani said:
So, anyone who meets these requirements you'd allow to detail your own/a friend's car? I'd say 99.999% of the detailers out there have these credentials.
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I never said that. Unfortunately, a "pro" doesn't have to be good at what they do. Again, that's according to my definition of a "pro." There are many professionals out there who do subpar work--that's just the way it is. As I said earlier, we're wading in to the murky waters of semantics.
 
mini1 said:
People need to understand that they get what they pay for. I always explain to customers what they are paying for in my packages. Some still manage to complain that paint hasn't been corrected, yet they didn't want to pay for it, so that service wasn't completed. That's what always get me. Don't complain if you didn't order the service and wanted to cheap out on the detail people!
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Exactly.



Many people are more than happy with a basic detail-full interior cleaning and protection, exterior wash, clay, 1 polishing step and wax or sealant. I can achieve at least some swirl removal even with a basic detail so the car definitely looks better not only inside but also outside. Unlike the detailers I would classify as "hacks", I don't leave rotary swirls in the paint, I don't leave bonded contaminants behind, I actually clean and dress fenderwells, I don't use greasy/oily protectants and I do actually clean the interior, not just a vacuum and protection. My basic details may not make the best click and brag threads but they do make my customers happy and that is what counts.



Obviously, I do make an attempt to upsell extra polishing when it is needed. ;)
 
Relaited said:
So, in order to not be a "hack", do you need to have had formal training ... beyond I watched a guy do it, then he let me try it, now I am on my own type of thing? Or what level of training or apprenticeship is appropriate.



-jim
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One more thing...formal training is a hard thing to define. Do you know how many cars I have corrected, that have been "hacked" by guys with all sorts of certifications on their business cards, and hanging in their work bay? I have fixed cars that have been "detailed" by body shops, as well as high end car dealerships, by guys that supposedly went to school for this sort of thing. Heck, I've even corrected a poor detailing job that was performed on a premium brand car that was factory delivered brand new.



Just to clarify, I agree that training for people operating in this field is important. I'm just sayin' it is hard to quantify all of this.
 
rydawg said:
I feel bad for a lot of detailers here that get stuck with a cheap customer.
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There is a difference between cheap customers and customers who just want a clean, shiny car. A cheap customer wants a bunch of free work and is never happy no matter what you do, a customer who wants a clean, shiny car understands they get what they pay for and are happy with that.



I try to avoid cheap customers at all costs (not fool proof though, like that Viper I walked away from a couple months ago) but customers who want a good, quality basic detail--they keep me busy pretty much every day it isn't raining and refer me a lot of business.
 
Stealth said:
there is no way I'm going to worry about buffer trails on the complete detail...it will probably take me 20 minutes to fully glaze the whole car to fill many of the swirls in. The problem is people call us hacks...and we know what we do but there is too much work to do in one day to worry about trying to do a better job...it's just not happening. Plus, a full wash-clay-buff-wax, is only costing the customer $110.00. Someone here please tell me how many swirls deserved to be properly removed after the entire car has been fully washed, fully clayed (with heavy duty clay because their car has been sitting for 12 years without a wash), inside fully vacuumed and dusted down with vinyl dressed, as well as a wax after the buffing.
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I see your point but even if the customer shouldn't expect swirl removal at that price point, they still shouldn't leave with more swirls than before the detail was done. I normally don't use the rotary on basic details for that reason.
 
weekendwarrior said:
One more thing...formal training is a hard thing to define. Do you know how many cars I have corrected, that have been "hacked" by guys with all sorts of certifications on their business cards, and hanging in their work bay? I have fixed cars that have been "detailed" by body shops, as well as high end car dealerships, by guys that supposedly went to school for this sort of thing. Heck, I've even corrected a poor detailing job that was performed on a premium brand car that was factory delivered brand new.



Just to clarify, I agree that training for people operating in this field is important. I'm just sayin' it is hard to quantify all of this.
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Exactly! :up



Look at all the ASE certified mechanics who do crap work. Just because they have the proper training and certification doesn't mean they do quality work.



Good detailers are always looking to improve, learn more about detailing, cleaning chemicals, etc; regardless of any formal training they might have had.
 
Scottwax said:
Exactly! :up



Look at all the ASE certified mechanics who do crap work. Just because they have the proper training and certification doesn't mean they do quality work.



Good detailers are always looking to improve, learn more about detailing, cleaning chemicals, etc; regardless of any formal training they might have had.
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You're right Scott. There's tons of I-CAR certified techs working at Maaco that turn out some of the crappiest body/paint work on the planet. Should we consider Maaco a Professional Body Shop because they have "industry recognized" certifications hanging on thier walls?
 
to me someone who is a hack is simple! its someone who says then can provide a service they simply can't perform. thats just my opinion. great thread!
 
The debate over what makes a 'professional' could go on forever. But at the end of the day, if it's how you make your living, then you are professional. Whatever your profession is, you are a professional at that service. It doesn't matter if its detailing, brain surgery, or grocery bagging. If you do it for a living, you're a professional.



Just like any other profession, detailers all have different levels of experience, training, and expertise. Detailing isn't special in that regard. It's the same as any other industry.



If a guy goes to medical school and gets C's, he still gets to be a doctor. And not many people will take the time to research a doctor's state licensing, malpractice history, hospital affilliation, etc. They just see the letters "M.D." and they expect to be healed.



Similarly, people hear the word "detail" and they expect a car to look like it just rolled out of the factory.



However, in the detailing world, the distinction between levels of service is not quite common knowledge. Everyone knows that you don't go to an optometrist if you have lung cancer. But not everyone knows that it takes 20 hours and hundreds of dollars to do a full paint correction.



The reason I started this thread is because I saw two threads posted just today, (plus dozens more over the years) where someone posts a gripe about how they were not satisfied with the level of service they received at their local detail shop. However, in both cases, it looked to me like the thread poster got exactly what he paid for. Yet, in both cases, there were plenty of people backing the guy and saying that they should find a better detailer.
 
Less said:
The debate over what makes a 'professional' could go on forever. But at the end of the day, if it's how you make your living, then you are professional. Whatever your profession is, you are a professional at that service. It doesn't matter if its detailing, brain surgery, or grocery bagging. If you do it for a living, you're a professional.
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Taken from Wikipedia (partial):



A professional is a member of a vocation founded upon specialised educational training. it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity. A 'true' professional must be proficient in all criteria for the field of work they are practising professionally in. Criteria include following: High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavours In narrow usage, not all expertise is considered a profession. Many companies include the word professional in their company name to signify the quality of their workmanship or service.
 
jdoria said:
Has anyone repaired hack-like work done by an "Autopian"?
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Yep sure have. On 3 seperate occasions that I recall I've corrected work done by other "Autopians" Nothing I would consider major issues. But the clients were beyond picky and the other guys for various reasons didn't live up to expectations. In all cases I would consider the detail to be more than enough for most people out there. But every now and then we just run into customers that go above and beyond with expectations v. service provided
 
Scottwax said:
I see your point but even if the customer shouldn't expect swirl removal at that price point, they still shouldn't leave with more swirls than before the detail was done. I normally don't use the rotary on basic details for that reason.
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Well, I definitely know when the customer leaves at that specific moment there isn't more swirls...but in about 4 days when the glaze wears off I can't guarantee if the car is in better shape swirl-wise than before...:grinno:



I'm poking a bit of fun but that's pretty much how I define a hack job. If you are stuck cutting corners and saying you did more than you really did, via using excessive fillers or say on a black interior if all you did was cover up the dirt and gunk with a quick dressing instead of actually cleaning it off then you're doing a hack job. In our defense, we do it because of time restraints and excessive volume of "details" per day. And I guess I can justify doing it because after the week or so when the fillers evaporate the customer can look at their car and say "what a waste of money, I need to get this done right by a true professional"...and they'll call you guys up. :xyxthumbs



But...it's up to you guys to make sure to go over a budget with the customer, and to let them know beforehand what exactly is covered in your different levels of details to make sure their expectations are not higher than your performance. Communication is key before any work is done on a car. But I'm assuming whenever I see a customer not satisfied with a detail - they took it to a car wash with a "detail center" like mine and we don't communicate to them at all unless they ask. If we think they won't be satisfied, we'll park in the shade.
 
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