Leather Cleaner recommend

Welcome to Autopia George! - :welcome



George LRP said:
Hello friends, I would like to strongly disagree with this as the statement is simply untrue. We all know guys who have left car windows or sun roofs open during rain and had their seats become shriveled due to the absorbed water. And while the coating on all leather is somewhat dirt resistant, it is not water proof. Any type of cleaner of conditioner you use will always affect the hide.



Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



George LRP said:
To answer the original question, any of the commercial products that contain a wax are fine to make the surface shiney, but you need to think first of keeping the hides nourished, and the surface color intact. Carnuba is a plant based wax and is safe for leather, and bees wax has always been a natural way to make leather more moisture and dirt resistant.



Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?
 
judyb said:
Cracks and wear areas should not be 'conditioned' as this will only help to further release the bond between the pigment and the leather. Finished leather that is worn or has begun to crack needs restoration work not 'conditioning'



Needle holes and perforations will allow more moisture to reach the leather itself which will keep it soft, supple and in good condition without the use of oils, waxes or 'fat liquors'



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These pictures shows the contrary - fatliquor is used to soften and strengthen the leather otherwise within a year of normal used all work done on refinishing will go to waste as the old cracks soon appears.



Refinishing returns the leather seat to normal use, not just for show.



It must be softer with increase tensile strength after fatliquoring.



#1 After hydrating with a pH 3.3 hydrator it is then conditioned with a pH 5.0 fatliquor to soften and strengthen this 19 yrs old leather seat when dry.

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#2 To achieve extra softness natural slow drying overnight is preferred.



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#3 Repair and Refinishing thereafter with a 3 year warranty

038.jpg
 
Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?

__________________

Yes, water is not good for leather, it causes it to shrivel and become dry once the water evaporates.



The affect of the cleaner or conditioner on the integrity of the finish or the leather depends again the on the ph of the product as discussed. Also think about the chemistry of the product used on the finish. In another thread, on another forum someone told a guy to use hair spray to clean a stain on his leather. Of course the hair spray removed the surface color and the guy was upset.



As a cheap cleaner, I would recommend Ivory Bar soap. Cut a chunk and disolve it in a small bowl of warm water for general all purpose cleaning. Any product that contains quality wax will be fine if you like a shiney look. I prefer a more natural matte finish on my autos.



The most important aspect of maintaining leather is to remember that you are working with two stratas, the actual hide and the surface finish. It is vital to maintain the tensile strength and luxurious suppleness of the hide as this is the backbone of the "leather". The second strata is the finish. It must be kept intact to protect the hide. These two steps are what helps the leather last the life of the car.

Regards,

George
 
Originally Posted by judyb

Cracks and wear areas should not be 'conditioned' as this will only help to further release the bond between the pigment and the leather. Finished leather that is worn or has begun to crack needs restoration work not 'conditioning'



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False. If you don't condition the hides and restore the luxurious suppleness and strength of the fibers prior to the redye, the new finish/surface "restoration" will continue to crack and the seats will look worse than they did with all the layers of paint on them.



Good quality leather should feel like leather, not painted vinyl, nor should it be heavily waxed, armoral all-ed or petroleum oiled. Remember it was once skin with a blood supply to nourish it. It is still made of the same protein molecules that will respond badly to harsh chemicals or happily to good nourishment.



The reason we pay for leather in our cars and homes is because it feels tactilly luxurious, it adjusts to body temperatures and breathes. For it to last, you should keep it in it's most natural state. Common sense should be to treat your leather as well a you would your own skin.

Regards,

George
 
David Fermani said:
Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?



Of course not, thats why should use some M105 and an Orange Pad followed by M205/white+blue pads to get rid of any swirling and surface blemishes so your leather seats can pass the Halogen test.



Putting wax on a vinyl sealed leather is counter productive.



What is confusing people is that advice applicable to dealing with unsealed leather is not applicable to modern automotive leather that has been sealed with vinyl.



Unless you get it sopping wet or abuse it on purpose you should think of such items as being equivalent to soft vinyl interiors except a little more delicate.



If someone really wanted to restore "fatliquor" to car leather, then they should go get some mink oil-type shoe polish and work that in. But then they shouldn't complain when it just sits on the surface of the vinyl coating and ruins it as well. :lol:
 
well at least the discussion of leather cleaning has improved since i stopped posting. Judy and Roger produce good information from several view points. I tend to agree more with roger. As that is where my years of training and exp lead me. As judy mentioned the IICRC i would recomend people take the time and start there. You will get an excelent overview of what leather is, what it needs and where to start. No it may not be complete and train you for every situation, but it will let you know what situations are above your level of expertise.



David, Thanks for the link. give me a call mate.
 
George LRP said:
Are you saying that water is not good for leather?



Will these cleaners and/or conditioners negatively affect the integrity of the surface?



Is a shiny, waxy surface indicative of a properly preserved surface?

__________________

Yes, water is not good for leather, it causes it to shrivel and become dry once the water evaporates.



The affect of the cleaner or conditioner on the integrity of the finish or the leather depends again the on the ph of the product as discussed. Also think about the chemistry of the product used on the finish. In another thread, on another forum someone told a guy to use hair spray to clean a stain on his leather. Of course the hair spray removed the surface color and the guy was upset.



As a cheap cleaner, I would recommend Ivory Bar soap. Cut a chunk and disolve it in a small bowl of warm water for general all purpose cleaning. Any product that contains quality wax will be fine if you like a shiney look. I prefer a more natural matte finish on my autos.



The most important aspect of maintaining leather is to remember that you are working with two stratas, the actual hide and the surface finish. It is vital to maintain the tensile strength and luxurious suppleness of the hide as this is the backbone of the "leather". The second strata is the finish. It must be kept intact to protect the hide. These two steps are what helps the leather last the life of the car.

Regards,

George

So Leather Master and judyb(forget what leather company she works for) are wrong about using water for leather? or misinformed I should say.

So how do oil based products get passed the polyurethane coating to nourish the leather? From my understanding oil are to thick to get passed the coating and thats why water based products are a better choice.

Edit: Didn't realize Leatherique was so close to me. You guys are only an hour and a half away. May swing by one day when I visit my bud who lives in Aiken.
 
judyb said:
Then we return to the ‘feeding’ ‘conditioning’, ‘nourishing’ topic.

It is incredibly difficult to remove the ‘natural’ oils (fat liquors) from leather especially using detergent cleaners so replacing them is totally unnecessary and possibly detrimental on both finished and unfinished leathers. Modern C/T (Chrome Tanned) upholstery leather is a very sophisticated product and has been for decades. The notion that it is something straight from nature (like skin) that has to be fed and nourished is totally incorrect (unless you are dealing with conservation and restoration in the museum and antique sense). The oils and fats in C/T leather are introduced after the C/T processes have reduced the skin to pure collagen fibre (there maybe a tiny amount of fat left but it is of no significance). The fat liquoring process carefully introduces fats/oils of a specific type back into the leather to coat the fibres, These are balanced to produce the desired end product and are very stable and very difficult to remove. Trying to add more fat/oil etc is totally unnecessary and is of no benefit. On an absorbent leather, products used for ‘conditioning’ and ‘feeding’ will soak into the leather upsetting the balance and over time change it to the detriment of the leather. If the leather is non absorbent (caoted or finished as in auto leather) then these products have no where to go so will sit on the surface, getting slightly sticky and attracting more dirt. If they do manage to ‘get in through the cracks’ the results will be the same as absorbent leathers with the added problem of adversely affecting the bond between surface coatings and the leather. I thought the object was to clean it!!!!! .



---------------





Fatliquor…In practice this is what happens.



Without fatliquoring the repairs is stiff and cracks too soon while the repair color works still looks new.



Just like the video say "like the car engine oil" it too will diminish.



The sign of diminishing fatliquor by sight are creases, wrinkles & micro cracks.



By hand or feel - stiffness, and will crack when flex in extreme cases.



#1: Stiff and crack repairs to the left bolsters

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#2: Dried, stiff and crack leather soaking up the fatliquor.

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Roger Koh said:
See this video, you'll see the why of "Fatliquor"



HowStuffWorks Videos "Dirty Jobs: Fat-liquor"



But is fatliquor able to penetrate the coating on my car seat leather? It seems like it would have to penetrate the coating in order to work, otherwise it would be like putting lotion on your hands while wearing gloves.



The video shows the fat liquoring process is done before any coatings are applied.



I'm just not seeing the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leather.
 
Water molecules, heavy oil molecules, and nutrients that are good for leather are different types of molecules. The cheap oil based products used by many products are not good for leather as the oil does not absorb into the protein based leather fiber, it actually pushes the fragile fibers further apart.



The method Roger Koh is describing is exactly what Leatherique has been advocating for 50 years. The Leatherique Rejuvenator is distributed by many of the supporters of this forum, is used worldwide by conservators, museums, as well as do it yourselfers, and is actually a leather specific protein based complex that is absorbed into the fibers of the hide to restore tensile strength and luxurious suppleness, and dirt by it's own nature and weight is floated out of the hide and can be safely cleaned with Leatherique's ph correct Prestine clean. You can use Rejuvenator 2-4 times per year to maintain the leather, and Prestine clean each time you dust or detail as it's a cleaner and light conditioner in one step for the surface cleaning. Leatherique also manufactures leather dyes, crack filler, and prepping agents if your color is worn, faded, or cracking.



Water from rain, drinks, coffee, coke, kids juice packs and sip cups, as well as high ph type cleaners and perspiration are all easily absorbed through the finish as the finish is NOT WATER PROOF. The newer water based finishes that leather manufacturers have been using since the 1990's, as well as the surface sprayed lacquers from the '80's back are on the surface to protect the hides and give them customer appeal. Cars, furniture, jackets, bags would be boring if everything was all natural tan in color.



You can easily test leather absorption yourself. Cut a scrap of leather from a salvage seat in a junk yard. Pour a few ounces of black coffee on top, and within a few hours you'll see the dark stain underneath on the hide.



We have leather in our cars because leather is luxurious, breathes, adjusts to body temperature. These are things vinyl simply can't do.



We treat leather and vinyl differently, because they are different. There are grades of vinyl that are more water resistant, which is why they are used in marine applications. You don't see much leather used as a convertible top to protect against rain. It is too heavy, and even if the surface is sealed, it will eventually absorb the rain. Leather is sometimes used as a convertible top cover on Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Bentley, but they presume you'll stow the leather conver in the boot during rain, and put the canvas convertible top back up.



The purpose of all cleaners is to emulsify dirt, turn it to mud so it can be floated away. On a porous surface like leather, often the mud is re-abosrbed back into the hide creating a perpetual dirty appearance especially on light leathers. The products that "finish" the surface also trap dirt.



Different folks like the smells or glossy looks of many of the commercial products. And they are fine to use as a dressing, as long as you are aware that all they are doing is making the coated surface shiney which makes for a nicely detailed car. For long lasting leather, it is vital to use a specific leather nourishment such as Leatherique Rejuvenator a few times a year to keep the actual hide healthy and strong, as the backbone of your upholstery to prevent splitting and cracking due to the fibers pulling apart, as well as to keep the finished surface shiney.



Perspiration from our bodies also has a high ph that can ruin and dry the hide as the salts are easily absorbed into the hides. Surely everyone has seen leather steering wheels and arm rests degrade and crack due to the absorption of perspiration. These are important areas to keep nourished and very clean. Another area that is often missed in leather care is the top of the back seat. These can literally fall aprt with a light touch as uv rays of the sun coming through slanty rear windows degrades the hides. I have seen the tops of back seats become powder, yet a few inches lower the leather is fine.



Proper leather care is vital to the life and appearance of your car, very expensive to replace, and deserving of all the attention it is getting in this discussion. Most lay people are not aware of the slight modifications to different years of cars. If you car looks like new, people perceive it as new even though it can be many years old. A luxurious leather interior that looks and feels like new will always maintain the value in your car.

regards,

George
 
SuperBee364 said:
But is fatliquor able to penetrate the coating on my car seat leather? It seems like it would have to penetrate the coating in order to work, otherwise it would be like putting lotion on your hands while wearing gloves.



The video shows the fat liquoring process is done before any coatings are applied.



I'm just not seeing the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leather.



---------------------------





1. Fatliquor will “NOT” penetrate the coating of leather car seat, unless it has developed micro-cracks that allow fatliquor or any liquid to seep through these impervious urethane topcoats.



2. Yes, unless it penetrate the weak point, orifice (maybe look over with a minifying glass better still use USB microscope that hooks up to your computer screen), it is useless and need to wipe off.



3. On a brand new auto, I would apply only to the perforated panel, it will soak through these perforation and spread through the entire leather structure.



4. A well fatliquor perforated panel will have a perfect circle, micro cracks will developed once the leather seat is constantly park under summer heat.



5. It is these perforation or needle holes that the deterioration begins, and it is also the first locations that lose it original fatliquor.



6. When you see cracks, fatliquor would not help, it is too late!



7. You will only see the benefit of applying fatliquor to coated leathers that either developed micro-cracks, worn, needle-holes or the perforated panels!
 
Water molecules, heavy oil molecules, and nutrients that are good for leather are different types of molecules. The cheap oil based products used by many products are not good for leather as the oil does not absorb into the protein based leather fiber, it actually pushes the fragile fibers further apart.

So water IS good for leather, no? and certain oils can get passed the coating?
 
Yes water is good for leather and no oils cannot get past the coating unless it is cracked in which case the pigment should be restored not filled with waxes and/or oils which may make restoration more difficult.
 
judyb said:
Yes water is good for leather and no oils cannot get past the coating unless it is cracked in which case the pigment should be restored not filled with waxes and/or oils which may make restoration more difficult.



----







Water can be so… good!



Water can be so… bad!



It depends on the pH of the water!



It also depends on its purity or the solids that it carries!



So, a leather-safe pure water should have a pH value of 3 - 5.





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®
 
Whoa, step away for a few days and good God, got three more experts all giving somewhat conflicting advice (ph matters - no it doesn't, water is good - no, use oil) etc, so what the hell do you do? Well, just my opinion based on my observed results and the advice from my Toyota owners manual:

Keep it clean, vac,

Wipe any excess dirt and dust away with a soft cloth dampened with a diluted detergent. Use a diluted water solution of approximately 5% neutral wool detergent

Wring out any excess water from the cloth and thoroughly wipe off all remaining traces of dteregent

Wipe the surface with a dry, soft cloth to remove any remaining moister. Allow to dry in a shaded ventilated area.



per the 2008 Highlander owner's manual, page 401
 
Roger Koh said:
So, a leather-safe pure water should have a pH value of 3 - 5.



Wait, what?



citation_needed.jpg




(pic link hotter than pH 3 - 5 in your eye)



Either you're being tongue-in-cheek, or you have no idea what pH means.



Tort
 
TortoiseAWD said:
Wait, what?





(pic link hotter than pH 3 - 5 in your eye)



Either you're being tongue-in-cheek, or you have no idea what pH means.



Tort



---------------





We shall conduct a test to proof it so!



Maybe in a convention, as the above picture suggested!



Loser pay the bill!



Are you game enough?



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®
 
judyb said:
Here are a couple of articles we wrote back in 2007 when this issue first hit the various forums - may make interesting reading for those seeking further information.











On some forums recently there has been much reference to the pH levels. I find this very confusing and unnecessary. In 20 years of successful cleaning and restoring leather I have never once referred to or been influenced by pH values. My advice would be to use specific leather products that have been tried and tested by your supplier who should also be willing to support you through any problems. The constant reference to pH may lead some cleaning operatives to think that pH is more important than product formulation and can therefore use any cleaner of the correct pH. Leather is NOT a fabric and cleans in a different way for which specific products have been formulated. These would have the correct pH values for the job they are designed for, you and I do not need to worry about them even if we do know them. Strong acids and strong alkalines and dry solvents all have the potential to damage leather finishes, don’t use them for cleaning, your cleaners if correctly supplied will not be of that nature.

.





-------------------





Well there should be enough interest on the subject of pH in regards to cleaning leathers.



You think so?



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®





Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®
 
Roger Koh said:
---------------





We shall conduct a test to proof it so!



Maybe in a convention!



Loser pay the bill!



Are you game enough?



Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®



What in the name of science are you talking about? Pure water has a pH of 7 *by definition*. If you're not talking about pure, neutral water, then say so instead of being vague. You're either a) not talking about pure water, b) unclear on what pH means, or c) doing a tap-dance to say that a leather-safe solution should have a pH of 3 - 5, in which case you're no longer talking about pure water.



pH of pure water

pH Definition

Why is pH = 7 the neutral point?



A pH of 3 - 5 is roughly equivalent to the acidity of orange juice. I'm no chemist, but I do recall my high school science.



Tort
 
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