Layering protection... ??? ...

Rod73

Rod73

Member
I`m curious what the forum members` perspectives are on adding a second layer of protection.

I get that the 40 layers of wax is just waisting products, but I have been really sold on having a 2nd layer of protection for uniformity, to extend and protect the original layer, and to even add a little bit of gloss if already properly detailed. A lot of those concepts I give credit to Larry Kosilla of AMO NYC. I even considered applying Fuzion over WGDPS 3.0 when a customer needs their car before that 12 hour window just to protect it from the elements.

But I know Gary Dean generally frowns upon it unless it`s being topped with his complimentary spray sealant. His explanation being that solvent in the wax/sealant will remove the previously applied layer. When he said solvent, it did occur to me he may just be refering to something that is in a `Cleaner Wax` which ofcourse will remove some or all of previously applied protection.

I am interested in what you guys think? I USUALLY keep it in the same product line when I top my LSP. Some exceptions when I compliment the Blackfire, Pinnacle, and Wolfgang line. For example I have used Crystal Seal and then an hour later topped with Souveran.
 
The theory is that applying a 2nd coat will fill any voids left from the 1st application which I personally think is a great idea when using waxes/sealants. You can only have 1 layer no matter how many coats you apply.
 
Waxes need not be cleaner-wax to have solvents. In fact, wax would be hard as a brick without solvent. Some waxes, like Colinite, have a strong solvent smell, yet their 915 variety is a finishing wax.

Two coats is ideal for the reason David mentioned. For fun, apply lots of coats to one panel. It won`t hurt. Do a shine and durability test. See for yourself.
 
IMHO, Gary is 100% correct.

If it was detailing for dollars, I would never layer anything. If you are layering multiple products - you are just getting a mixture of products on the surface - not "layers".

However, sometimes it`s just fun for your own personal cars, and adding a second coat of a single product does add to uniform coverage.


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Waxes/Sealants: I personally just apply a second layer of wax/sealant about a week later at the end of the next maintenance wash. You`ll notice any weak spots during the final rinse.

Layering in general: Really depends on the product IMHO. Klasse Sealant Glaze is one of the few products I feel layers over itself as long as the previous layer is cured.

Coatings: I prefer applying coatings with two layers to ensure full coverage and hopefully, maximize adhesion/durability/thickness.

If the solvents in the wax/sealant dissolve the previous layer why don`t we have a solvent based product that can strip all waxes/sealants? I know IPA can and so can CarPro Eraser and other paint cleaners but I`ve also seen many posts that show IPA and Eraser not stripping some sealants and waxes. That leaves me to conclude that some products could be layered.
 
But do you think there`s enough solvent content in wax/sealant that it could actually remove what`s already on the surface? If it were that concentrated (based on that rationale) you`d also be removing the new product as you wiped it on too.
 
David Fermani said:
But do you think there`s enough solvent content in wax/sealant that it could actually remove what`s already on the surface? If it were that concentrated (based on that rationale) you`d also be removing the new product as you wiped it on too.
Click to expand...

I think it`s like Swanicyouth said, you`ll end up creating a mix of the two LSP as the solvent brakes down the previous layer. (IMHO) No, you won`t actually remove an old product by applying a new one or a second layer but you may break down the existing layer and create a mixture of two products (if different).
 
I think two is a nice number, after that you may start seeing diminishing returns. Wax is not clear, that is why we love that carnuba glow.
 
4u2nvinmtl said:
I think it`s like Swanicyouth said, you`ll end up creating a mix of the two LSP as the solvent brakes down the previous layer. (IMHO) No, you won`t actually remove an old product by applying a new one or a second layer but you may break down the existing layer and create a mixture of two products (if different).
Click to expand...

So, what if you`re using the same product?
 
I`m all about protection and durability, so if layering works I`ll do it for thost reasons (seldom bother doing it for looks alone). I`m also all about *NOT* spending one unnecessary moment on this stuff, so I absolutely will *NOT* bother with multiple applications of products that don`t show evidence of layering.

Plenty of products layer for me, at least if I do it properly.

To find out whether something will layer for *you* you gotta test it (properly). Then go by *your* results no matter what anybody else says/thinks.

I`ve had so many cases of utterly indisputable layering with products that [others] say "absolutely won`t layer" that I`m actually a bit sick of this topic!

Multiple applications of something either provide *some* benefit that you consider worthwhile, or they don`t. Trust your own experience instead of stuff you read on the internet (even here at Autopia).
 
David Fermani said:
So, what if you`re using the same product?
Click to expand...
Depends on how much solvent it has. A high solvent Sealant or Wax will likely mix the second layer with the first layer not removing the first layer but not necessarily adding any extra thickness or protection. I would assume it also matters how the products cure (e.g. like a coating once it`s cured the solvents from a subsequent layer wouldn`t break it down the first layer).

Klasse Sealant Glaze doesn`t seem to have this issue and I can`t smell any solvents. I`ve layer Klasse more than 5 layers (think I stopped at 7) and I did start to get diminishing returns (at a certain point it just doesn`t keep getting thicker and the look stops getting better).

I assume coatings can also be layered once cured (I`d wait 1 week before layering anything over a coating).
 
4u2nvinmtl said:
... I`ve layer Klasse more than 5 layers (think I stopped at 7) and I did start to get diminishing returns (at a certain point it just doesn`t keep getting thicker and the look stops getting better)..
Click to expand...

IME the looks quit improving after 4. I never went past 6 but got good durability out of that many layers.
 
4u2nvinmtl said:
If the solvents in the wax/sealant dissolve the previous layer why don`t we have a solvent based product that can strip all waxes/sealants?



...but I`ve also seen many posts that show IPA and Eraser not stripping some sealants and waxes. That leaves me to conclude that some products could be layered.
Click to expand...

A Product like this.

Wurth Clean Prep

Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion


The inability of a paint prep to strip a particular LSP has little to do with determining the presence of more than one layer.
 
David Fermani said:
But do you think there`s enough solvent content in wax/sealant that it could actually remove what`s already on the surface? If it were that concentrated (based on that rationale) you`d also be removing the new product as you wiped it on too.
Click to expand...

Right, but theoretically - you have to let most waxes "haze" and most sealants "cure". What is going on here is *most* of the solvents are evaporating.

So, this is leaving behind mostly carnauba or whatever other "protectant" is in the LSP you are using. When you go to wipe it off - the LSP is "solvent free" or very low solvent. This is leaving the protection behind only (in theory).

So, the act of applying layer #2 of LSP (rich with solvents) would remove the initial layer - IMHO - via the friction and motion of spreading the LSP. When the solvents outgas and you go to wipe it off - the layer would be just as thick as the initial layer.

Traditional type waxes may contain somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/3 solvents. If you look at traditional old school solvents like odorless kerosene, mineral spirits, etc... These are very effective at removing "wax". Although, I`m sure better solvents are in widespread use today.

This all my opinion and theory, I have nothing to back it up.
 
allenk4 said:
A Product like this.

Wurth Clean Prep

Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion
Click to expand...

Nice to see the Wurth (which I`ve never used), and especially that Pinnacle PCL (which I`ve used many times over the years), getting some attention! The newer version of the PCL is milder than it used to be, but still seems to work well.

How are you testing to indisputably verify the presence of the additional layers?
Click to expand...

Noting that *WHAT`S "INDISPUTABLE" TO ME MIGHT NOT BE TO SOMEBODY ELSE*, and that I`m *NOT* gonna argue the point (aw gee, sorry to sound defensive but this topic has gotten contentious before), here`s what I do:

Do a half-and-half on a panel with one side getting more layers. Control the relevant variables as best you can (e.g., equalize the "start time" of both sides for the test period) and otherwise try to be as objective and scientific about it as possible. Observe what happens and see whether the "more layers" side demonstrates some diff of value. If there`s some blatantly obvious diff that`s worth the hassle of layering, OK; if not, I won`t bother doing it again.

E.g., do half a hood with a few applications. When doing the final application, also do the other side of the hood. Result: one half with one application, the other with more, both having been "most recently done" at the same time. Observe and compare the two sides over time and see what you think. With products that "everybody knows don`t layer" I`ve had the multiple-applications side stay slick/shiny/etc. considerably longer than the side that only got one application. Good enough for me.

(I actually do it a bit different from that, but that`s the general idea. IMO everybody should find their own method and go by their own experience.)
 
Layering waxes is certainly possible ... here`s a story from about 20+ years ago ...

I was at a car show in Red Bank NJ ... (using and selling another product not of my own) and a guy with a Corvette .. looked like a dark brown paint job came over to me and asked why his car didn`t shine like other Vettes and the demo car I was working on ... I asked him how he maintained the vehicle. Of course it was a garage queen with low miles... He told me he washed and waxed it every other week for years .. i asked him if he had ever polished it and removed all the old wax. He told me it never came to mind since it was so well waxed. I went over to his car and did a test spot with a polish ( with his permission) and it was like rubbing off crayons. It was so thick it clogged my cloth in seconds . I finally got to the smooth paint and the car was Burgundy metallic. He had forgotten what his car actually looked like ... as happy as he was to see the shine, the look in the guy`s face when i told him he had to strip and polish the whole car was a look I`ll never forget .. he had one shiny spot and a dull Vette with a lot of wax ... There is a point of diminishing returns before needing to start from scratch, but the added layers doesn`t necessarily mean more protection, nor does it mean that you are not getting something out of it.
 
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