Layering (again)

M

molydood

New member
Hi all,



I want to understand the theory behind layering compatibility of certain product types



Things I think I know already:

-waxs need to breath and must not have sealant on top of them

-waxs can be placed on top of certain sealants, acrylic based ones seem to be best for this like Klasse AIO/KSG

-certain manufacturers make both a sealant and a wax and hence you could probably assume that they would be compatible

-some sealants/wax's can be layered/benefit from layering, but some require spit shine, some don't



That didn’t take long did it, now onto the things I don’t know:

Sealants/waxs can be acrylic, polymer or petroleum based?

How do we know which category they fall into? Look at the ingredients?

Do the petroleum ones act as solvents when layering hence spit shine method required?

What about layering those on top of other products? Which ones are compatible and why?

and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?



I am not looking for a list of which products are compatible with whichever other ones (although that would be very handy), more so the reasons behind it. Get a scientific as you like with any information as I am really wanting to get my head around the 'why's more than the 'how's



Cheers!

Martin
 
and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?
Click to expand...



Precisely. the AIO is the cleaner/polish portion of the Klasse twins and will prep and clean the paint surface, providing a base for the KSG to go on top of. The KSG is the full-fledged sealant glaze which can be layered a few times over for more protection and shine.



the rest of your questions i have no clue, hope some others can help with those!
 
it's a good start, thanks :)

I do hope somebody can answer the other questions which have been bugging me for a while now
 
Sealants come in many forms

Acrylic - polymer, old school polymer (dusty and whiten plastics) and other special types with no actual name



The type should be stated on suppliers website or on the bottle

Acrylics really require a prep step

Prime before AJ, Nano clean before nano seal etc etc



Polymers seem to work fine with glazes like RMG, VM and others but acrylics do not thus requiring prime which you apply after the glaze.



Can apply layers of acrylics and then polymers but I find putting polymers on first doesn't provide the durability and slickness of the other way.



Ultra gloss and fireglaze DS work great, Carlack 68 then KSG or AJ is superb, Duragloss Polish bonding agent and UPP also good



If you want a list of all my combinations, PM me

I test certain products from over 60 brands every day I am not detailing cars or delivering products
 
molydood said:
Hi all,



I want to understand the theory behind layering compatibility of certain product types



Things I think I know already:

-waxs need to breath and must not have sealant on top of them

-waxs can be placed on top of certain sealants, acrylic based ones seem to be best for this like Klasse AIO/KSG

-certain manufacturers make both a sealant and a wax and hence you could probably assume that they would be compatible

-some sealants/wax's can be layered/benefit from layering, but some require spit shine, some don't



That didn’t take long did it, now onto the things I don’t know:

Sealants/waxs can be acrylic, polymer or petroleum based?

How do we know which category they fall into? Look at the ingredients?

Do the petroleum ones act as solvents when layering hence spit shine method required?

What about layering those on top of other products? Which ones are compatible and why?

and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?



I am not looking for a list of which products are compatible with whichever other ones (although that would be very handy), more so the reasons behind it. Get a scientific as you like with any information as I am really wanting to get my head around the 'why's more than the 'how's



Cheers!

Martin
Click to expand...



Martin,



what you obviously don't know:



- Waxes don't need to breath. They cure - when they have aminofunctional components in them. The process uses the moisture from the ambient air, but this is not breathing. There is no such thing that they "mustn't have" a sealant on the top of them.

- Sealants just "swim" on the top of the wax. In most cases, they are unable to bond to an oil-rich wax. If the wax contains synthetic ingredients, a sealant may bond to it, but the life expentancy is still less than normal.

- Waxes can be put on every type of sealant, no matter if it is acrylic, resin, whatever based.

- The fact that a manufacturer makes a carnauba wax AND a sealant doesn't necessarily mean that they would be cross-compatible.

- Lot of sealants and waxes can layer - and therefore benefit from layering, but some solvents are strong enough to eat away most of the underlying layers of previously applied products.

- No wax "requires" spit shining.



- Waxes are khm, waxes. They can be natural and synthetic.

- Sealants are synthetic and they have some kind of polymer base.

- There are blends as well; part sealant, part wax.

- Almost all car care products based on or contains petroleum distillates.

- The spit shine method is always optional, never required.

- You can always layer waxes on top of other products.

- Oils inhibit the bonding process of synthetics, but others are pretty much compatible. When incompatibility occurs, the active ingredients are unable to form a homogeneous layer on the surface, which causes streaking, smearing, etc.

- Even cleaner type products can layer to a certain point - but it greatly depends on the exact application technique. Two layers of AIO is always smoother, denser than one. That is/can be the gradual cleaning and the denser acrylic structure of the subsequent layers.

But you can speak of true layering using pure sealants and refined wax formulas. Generally no cleaner type products.
 
SVR,

thanks for the feedback.

What is prime? (as in Jeffs?)

May I ask what makes you think acrylics need prep? Is there any theory behind this or just what you know from experience?



…….and how come you test all these products?!



Cheers!
 
Thanks Bence, some questions on your comments



Bence said:
- Lot of sealants and waxes can layer - and therefore benefit from layering, but some solvents are strong enough to eat away most of the underlying layers of previously applied products.

- No wax "requires" spit shining.
Click to expand...



So assuming they are hydrogen bonding, can we speed up the curing process by spraying the panels with water? Or is there something special about the moisture in the air?

Also, I have read that a carnuba can turn yellow if it can't breath/cure. Do you believe this to be nonsense? I have read it numerous times.



Bence said:
- Waxes can be put on every type of sealant, no matter if it is acrylic, resin, whatever based.
Click to expand...



Just to be clear, do you bellieve that ALL waxes can be placed on top of ALL sealants? Or are you simply saying that there are no rules regarding what can be layered and what cannot? To expand on my original question; I am trying to establish these rules, so that trial and error is not the only way of determining compatibiliy. If the rules do not involve the polymer, acrylic etc, then what DO they involve?



Bence said:
- No wax "requires" spit shining.
Click to expand...



as I understand it; the spit shine method has one purpose and that is to enable layering of the same product (without the solvent breaking down previous layer). Are you saying that this is not the purpose of the spit shine method? Or are you saying that the spit shine method simply has no purpose?





Thanks again

Martin
 
molydood- Welcome to Autopia!



Spitshining is primarily used to allow layering of wax in a short timeframe, basically one-coat-right-after-another with no waiting for the wax to cure. The "spit" mitigates the solvent action of the wax so it doesn't disturb the initial application(s). If the wax has already been on there a while you don't need to spitshine unless there's some very unusual high solvent content involved and in that case I'd question whether the spitshining would sufficiently mitigate the solvent action. I've never encountered a (paste) wax like that anyhow and spitshining isn't really applicable to liquid waxes.
 
Thanks for the welcome :)



What you say makes perfect sense regarding the spit shine method, cheers. I wonder if the water reacts with the solvents, or if it just just forms a protective layer to stop the wax layers reacting with one another
 
molydood said:
... I wonder if the water reacts with the solvents, or if it just just forms a protective layer to stop the wax layers reacting with one another
Click to expand...



I doubt that it literally reacts, more likely just dilutes/buffers. FWIW many of us prefer to use a (preferably low-cleaning power) QD instead of water for the "spit" and to chill said QD prior to use.
 
molydood,



The term "active ingredient", is defined as that part of the sealant or generally "polish" (as per the raw material industry) left behind in the form of a film on the polished surface after application.



In the case of the curable amine silicones, a reactive alkoxy group undergoes a condensation reaction that provides a crosslinked film on the surface. Aminofunctional silicones are compatible with other silicone fluids and resins and therefore may be blended to create the desired polish performance.



The necessary moisture is very little; it is a fine balance act between drying out vs. overwetting. The active ingredients may not crosslink quickly enough to form a strong, durable barrier when the ambient air is too dry, letting them flash dry. Curing is getting slower with the increasing humidity level. Too much moisture, and the actives are washed out - the film won't be durable. That's why you have to avoid rain, even morning dew with curing sealant layers for at least 12-72 hours (product dependent). So, when you spray water to a curing sealant, you are compromising its durability.



Waxes don't cure in this same context, only when they contain curable synthetic active ingredients.



The yellowing of carnauba is mostly gone with modern chemistry. The "wax needs to breath" is BS in its truest and simplest form.



Yes, theoretically all waxes can be put on any sealant, but few waxes can be put on top of sealants.



You'll be experiencing a certain degree of layering with all products, and all products work the best with 2-3 coats. Of course, there are a few exceptions, for example 1Z Glanz or the very similar Rex alternative (both are solventy water-thin liquids), which readily remove/eat away all underlying layers of previously applied protection (however, this can be addressed too). Trial & error is an important part in this detailing world, because the manufacturers develop their products with their own system in mind. Therefore you can experience incompatibility issues but unexpected compatibilities as well. Verdict: you won't be able to set up Always True Rules. It is just impossible. General rules exist - with exceptions.



Your perception of the spit shining method is correct, and Accumuator described you further. But no wax "needs" spit shining. It is always optional to bring out even more shine and wetness. We - Nick T., Bill D, Accumulator and myself are dedicated spit shiners, because it is a wonderful method of perfecting a surface. It is tedious, so it is reserved for special moments and occasions.
 
Bence, thanks for taking the time to go into some of the detail for me, I understand things much better this way.



So the amine silicones are present in all sealants but NOT all waxs? And thus sealants are (generally) more sensitive to atmospheric conditions due to the moisture dependency (for curing)?



Because you state that almost all products (sealants and wax) contain petroleum, this means that a spit shine is almost always required if you want to layer products (sealant or wax) and don’t want to sit out the natural curing period (12-72 hours)?

This would contradict the methodology of applying multiple sealants (or amino-waxs) in one day (which some people do).



Cheers

Martin
 
Martin,



Yes, sealants are more sensitve. They need a relatively exact window to function (cure) well. They can be more durable (provide shine for a longer periods of time), but also they can protect less than a heavy carnauba wax.



Natural formula beauty waxes not necessarily contain petroleum distillates. Not petroleum, just its distillates; solvents, etc.



Again: Spit shining is never required. You can build layers without spit shining, but the solvents act more aggressively and may compromise the previous layers more. However, for a complete coverage you have to apply 2-3 coats which in the end is sufficient; both mechanically & optically. But if you want to spit shine, it is completely your optional choice. You'll be able to build heavier layers in a shorter time.



Curing is a slow process. The most part of the crosslinking occurs in the first hour, then the remaining 20-30% in the next day(s). The generally recommended waiting period of 12-24 hours is safe to apply the next layers. With the most products however, you can start layering after 1-2 hours, because that will ensure a sufficient initial bond (70-80% crosslinking) and stability. Some products layer more readily, and you can start building the layers after 15-20 minutes. After, the whole coat-package will cure but for a longer period of time.



People often have no choice when doing multiple layers, because the customers can not wait for their cars. Yes, it is a compromise but optics is the most obvious perceived part of a detail.
 
Sorry, just noticed; the following wasn't addressed:



"Because you state that almost all products (sealants and wax) contain petroleum, this means that a spit shine is almost always required if you want to layer products (sealant or wax) and don’t want to sit out the natural curing period (12-72 hours)?"



I have read that sealants do not spit shine, is this true? If so I am back at square one I feel.



Martin
 
molydood said:
......Because you state that almost all products (sealants and wax) contain petroleum, this means that a spit shine is almost always required if you want to layer products (sealant or wax) and don’t want to sit out the natural curing period (12-72 hours)?

This would contradict the methodology of applying multiple sealants (or amino-waxs) in one day (which some people do)......
Click to expand...
Sealers usually do require at least a 12-24 hour period to properly bond (cross-link) to the paint before applying another layer. The exception to that would be Zaino when mixed with the ZFX additive. The added ZFX offers a "near-instant cure time" that allows you to apply up to three layers in one day. Some people, when applying a very thin layer of sealant, might do a second application the same day just to make sure they covered the whole area (didn't miss a spot).



Since a sealer actually bonds to the paint, after the sealant has cured, it is possible to apply another layer.
 
Generally, Finish Kare sealants are instantly layerable after their drying time (15-20 min.), just as CG's Factory Sealant.



I can mention at least five 2-component catalyzed sealant system which uses a curing accelerator, but only 2 is available in the US.



Please keep in mind that most carnaubas contain synthetic components too, so they bond to the substrate as well (but to a lesser extent).
 
Can I just summarize my understanding:



-Wax is spit shined because otherwise the solvents would prevent us layering them. As an alternative, if we allow the wax to cure (12-72 hours), we can layer it because the solvents have become less aggressive

-Sealants cannot be spitshined, and we must wait for them to cure (12-72 hours) so that we can add another layer, otherwise they will not have bonded to the previous layer. And the reason we have to wait for curing in this case has NOTHING to do with the solvents being incompatible? (as with the wax)

-likewise, in the case of the wax, we are NOT waiting for the wax to bond to the previous layer (as with the sealants)?



Thanks again, just trying to reach a common understanding with regards to layering of both sealants and waxs
 
molydood- I think you're getting a lot closer to a good functional understanding of it, but I'll clarify a few points (and leave it to somebody with a greater understanding of this stuff, somebody like Bence, to put a finer point on things ;) ).



It's not that the solvents become less aggressive after the wait, but rather that the cured wax is more resistant *to* the possible solvent-effect. Once wax cures it's not all that fragile any more so you don't have to mitigate the solvent-effect via spitshining.



The solvents have to "cure" or else they're vulnerable to solvent-effects, even from just something like (a lot of) water. Not so much a case of whether they're bonding but rather a case of whether they've attained a stable condition so they'll stay put.



As an aside, one additional benefit of multiple-applications-all-at-once is the temporary abundance of oils. Before people started spit-shining, there was something called "concours waxing", where you'd apply coat after coat of some wax like Souveran, all at one time. It *did* provide a temporary boost in appearance that people took advantage of at shows (hence the "concours" in the name ;) ). Even though there wasn't any "layered" buildup of wax, there *was* a buildup, or rather an unusual abundance, of polishing oils/etc. on the finish, it just didn't last long; by the next day it would once again look like you'd just done one coat, but for those few hours right after you did it, it *did* look impressive. Note that this probably won't work with every wax.
 
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