Layer P21S or EX

  • Thread starter Thread starter MetalSludge
  • Start date Start date
DETAILKING said:
I wanted to chime in here to go over a few things. In most cases, the presence of an "oil" will inhibit the crosslinking, bonding, curing adn physical properties of a polymer. On a molecular level, the oils inhibit the polymer from becoming the solid structure that it wants to be. In large proportions, an oil will hinder the crosslinking (act as a barrier between chains) and you will be left with a pile of goo. In smaller proportions, if the oil was even compatible with the system in the first place, the oil will weaken the backbone structure of the polymer by preserving the "fluid" (flowing) properties to the crosslinking substance. This will effect overall hardness, durability, cure time, and bonding. I would say that most oils are not even soluble in polymer formulas. This means that the oils could migrate to the surface while the polymer cures underneath. A diminish in shine after a wash or rain storm would lead one to believe that the protection is gone if the oil was the only source of shine (a half a$$ polymer formulation in my opinion.



As for the candle wax theory....well candle wax is not a polymer, it is a wax. Basically its just a solid structure at room temperature not a crosslinked compound. Candles wax is poured hot into a mold along with other ingredients and then cooled to a solid form. This is like comparing apples to oranges when talking about it in relation to polymer chemistry.



As for the ionic / covalent thing....none of these are happening in a polymer formulation as it is curing on your paint. Any bonding is caused by an adhesive property inherent in the formula (glue, caulk,etc,etc...all similar examples. Ionic or covalent bonding suggests that your paint and the sealant are coming together to form a new compound which simply is not the case.



Hope this helps....
Click to expand...



Everything I was trying to say, only you said it better!! :bow :xyxthumbs
 
BW said:
I've completed my wax test, and I am afraid to post my findings. People flame people for spreading reality.
Click to expand...



I too, did a very in-depth miniature test after the last controversy that surrounded EX and some other very botique products...and I'm not going to share the results for the same reason as BW.



I'd get stuck defending the results to a select few who would be convinced that the results were flawed, misleading, etc...no matter what would be said, done or demonstrated - it wouldn't mater...



:(
 
Back on subject, waxes like P21S don't physically "layer," but there is a build up of temporary oils. EX is also one, but a cleaner wax. Even if it were a true, oil-free synthetic, it still wouldn't layer, as the cleaners will strip whatever was on before.
 
I've noticed durability of the sealants and waxes I use seem to depend on the car it is applied to. Lexus, GM and Ford paints seem to bead the longest, no matter if I use a sealant or a carnuba based wax. Mercedes and BMW seem to have the shortest wax or sealant life, especially the black ones since I am sure the exposure to sun and heat affect how long products last.



That may explain why some people are really satisfied with EX's durability and some aren't.
 
BW said:
I've completed my wax test, and I am afraid to post my findings on BF, CMW, UPP, and EX. People flame people for spreading reality.
Click to expand...



Agreed. As much as I like the look of Carnuba Moose Wax, the combination of Clearkote's petroleum based wax and carnuba doesn't seem to be any more or less durable than S100 which is a more straight carnuba based wax. You are going to get on average (depending on car color, enviromental factors, etc) about 6-12 weeks max of protection from any carnuba, no matter what else is added to it.
 
Scottwax said:
You are going to get on average (depending on car color, enviromental factors, etc) about 6-12 weeks max of protection from any carnuba, no matter what else is added to it.
Click to expand...



:bow



Finally we agree! ;)
 
Intermezzo said:
Although SRL is speaking in theoretical terms, his explanations are right on. Also, oils do not play the main role when it comes to the spreadability of a product.



Also, Edwin, I don't mean any disrespect, but I think I have to disagree with your reasoning. By your analogy, it would seem that every single wax is actually a crosslinking sealant? My understanding of candle-wax (ha! not that I have tons of intimate knowledge of candle wax! lol) is that it once you form it and it cools down, it doesn't 'crosslink' into a highly organized chain of repeating molecules? Isn't more like regular carnauba wax which just 'bonds' to your car and not crosslink into a durable chain of highly structured, uniform repeating molecules like Klasse and Zaino?
Click to expand...



Tony no disrespect taken. :bow



My reference to candle was simply figurative ( oil - The Evil Anti-Cross-linking Substance ;) ) and in retrospect and, as pointed out by you and DK, not right for this discussion. :o



DK has given some very good theories on a macro-scale why oils may weaken a structure. But again please reference why oil in small amounts can not fill in the space, in a micro-scale, the latex of the "cross-linking( latex formation of the resin) and lipophobic nature of the resin form a sap-like adhersion to the paint.



I am trying to get an answer (scientific based discussion) why xCH3CH2-SiO + Carnauba + Resin does not = extended durability



There must be one Autopian out there that enlighten us beyond isolated observations. ( BW resin type sealant - no go BlkZ resin type sealant - no problem) :nixweiss
 
Than again why are we discussing this? We all detail much too often to really care if something last 6 weeks or 6 months. It how it looks after application. :wavey
 
blkZ28Conv said:
Than again why are we discussing this? We all detail much too often to really care if something last 6 weeks or 6 months. It how it looks after application. :wavey
Click to expand...



You mean how some Zaino users tout it's well deserved reputation for durability, but layer it anyway every week? ;)



I highly doubt anyone here regularly pushed the limits of durability (other than geekysteve when he is testing products) of whatever product we are using, whether it be Zaino, Klasse, Meguiars, Poorboys, Clearkote, S100/P21S, Pinnacle, et al.
 
Scottwax said:
You mean how some Zaino users tout it's well deserved reputation for durability, but layer it anyway every week? ;)



I highly doubt anyone here regularly pushed the limits of durability (other than geekysteve when he is testing products) of whatever product we are using, whether it be Zaino, Klasse, Meguiars, Poorboys, Clearkote, S100/P21S, Pinnacle, et al.
Click to expand...



I've pushed Zaino before. I've gone 5 months without adding a layer of Zaino on one occasion, still beaded and felt great. Currently, I have not added a layer of Zaino on my Explorer for 3+ months, still beading like the day it was put on.



I'm not exactally sure why I've been pushing it, I think I'm getting lazy. ;)
 
blkZ28Conv said:
Has anyone noticed that this discussion has brought out all the "Old Boys". :D
Click to expand...



It's nice to chat about something worth talking about, for a change. :D Good to see all of you 'old timers' !!!!!



I push the Tahoe's Zaino all the time - usually do no more than 2 initial layers and then ask it to last for 6-8 months, while the wife runs it through the automatic car wash, etc...
 
blkZ28Conv said:
Has anyone noticed that this discussion has brought out all the "Old Boys". :D
Click to expand...



Oh yeah! This thread is almost nostalgic to me! :)



I agree...this has been one of the better threads as of late....



Two things about this thread have made my day...first, DETAILKING decides to chime in....and then Scottwax actually calls Zaino..."Zaino"...and not "Zainos". :D
 
geekysteve said:
It's nice to chat about something worth talking about, for a change. :D Good to see all of you 'old timers' !!!!!
Click to expand...



Here! Here!



Heated and thought provoking discussion withOUT flaming!!!:bow





Definitely nostalgic!:xyxthumbs





SORRY ABOUT THE TYPO. :o
 
geekysteve said:
It's nice to chat about something worth talking about, for a change. :D Good to see all of you 'old timers' !!!!!



I push the Tahoe's Zaino all the time - usually do no more than 2 initial layers and then ask it to last for 6-8 months, while the wife runs it through the automatic car wash, etc...
Click to expand...





Way to go thread killer........lol
 
I wanted to chime in here to go over a few things. In most cases, the presence of an "oil" will inhibit the crosslinking, bonding, curing adn physical properties of a polymer. On a molecular level, the oils inhibit the polymer from becoming the solid structure that it wants to be. In large proportions, an oil will hinder the crosslinking (act as a barrier between chains) and you will be left with a pile of goo. In smaller proportions, if the oil was even compatible with the system in the first place, the oil will weaken the backbone structure of the polymer by preserving the "fluid" (flowing) properties to the crosslinking substance. This will effect overall hardness, durability, cure time, and bonding. I would say that most oils are not even soluble in polymer formulas. This means that the oils could migrate to the surface while the polymer cures underneath. A diminish in shine after a wash or rain storm would lead one to believe that the protection is gone if the oil was the only source of shine (a half a$$ polymer formulation in my opinion.



As for the candle wax theory....well candle wax is not a polymer, it is a wax. Basically its just a solid structure at room temperature not a crosslinked compound. Candles wax is poured hot into a mold along with other ingredients and then cooled to a solid form. This is like comparing apples to oranges when talking about it in relation to polymer chemistry.



As for the ionic / covalent thing....none of these are happening in a polymer formulation as it is curing on your paint. Any bonding is caused by an adhesive property inherent in the formula (glue, caulk,etc,etc...all similar examples. Ionic or covalent bonding suggests that your paint and the sealant are coming together to form a new compound which simply is not the case.



Hope this helps....
 
ShowroomLincoln said:
I've pushed Zaino before. I've gone 5 months without adding a layer of Zaino on one occasion, still beaded and felt great. Currently, I have not added a layer of Zaino on my Explorer for 3+ months, still beading like the day it was put on.



I'm not exactally sure why I've been pushing it, I think I'm getting lazy. ;)
Click to expand...



:lol I know the feeling. I used to dust and QD my car at least every other day, but I just don't have time anymore. I'd rather go out to the park and skate, especially since I've already spent the day detailing. I haven't even waxed mine car in almost two months. Still beading nicely though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top