Layer P21S or EX

  • Thread starter Thread starter MetalSludge
  • Start date Start date
M

MetalSludge

Guest
Hi all here is the setup I am about to do. I was wandering should I layer the PoorBoys EX or P21S?



PoorBoys Pro Polish

PoorBoys SSR1

PoorBoys EX

top it with P21S paste wax.



Should I layer the EX or P21S or both?
 
EX x2 or 3 ( 24 hrs apart. This not a rule but just from my experience from testing EX prior to its release)



P21S x1 at least 24 hrs after last EX layer and maintain with P21S after that.



There is only a slight increase in appearance with P21S as a topper so no need to rush to apply. :wavey
 
blkZ28Conv said:
There is only a slight increase in appearance with P21S as a topper so no need to rush to apply. :wavey
Click to expand...

I've found that the slight improvement in appearance disappears after the first wash. I just leave the EX untopped now.
 
As I posted in another thread, I keep hearing more and more about EX failures after a short timeframe. Remember, EX is a wax by most means with some resin added. It's NOT a true sealant by any means. It's not a true polymer sealant.



Great idea, but as with other true sealants, most just use the sealants then top with wax if they choose later.



EX was a responce to try to marry both worlds, but IMO, it seems lacking in durability. If you "wax" often, then no problem with EX. If you do not, expect it to last just several months if you're lucky.



You're better off with a true sealant, Zaino, Klasse, UPP, #20 etc and then top with wax.



There are many products to try and test, so it's a matter of time until you find one that just is the best you've seen.



Regards,

Deanski
 
So what are you saying that the EX isnt really worth the time? I have been using it for like 3 months now but I have applied it about every 2 weeks and it seems to be doing great. My problem is I am trying to find something that will get me through the winter. As my truck is also a daily driver and isnt garage kept and in the winter its almost impossible to wax let alone keep clean. Thats why I was going to top it with p21s paste wax. What would you reccomend for this situation?
 
I might get flamed for this, but in my experience, EX doesn't layer very well because of its cleaning properties. As a stand-alone product with no topper, EX seemed to die quicker than P21S carnauba. :down



Topping EX with P21S carnauba may slightly increase durability, but not nearly long enough to get you through the winter. For that I would recommend layering 3-4 coats of Klasse SG or Zaino without any toppers.
 
Deanski said:
As I posted in another thread, I keep hearing more and more about EX failures after a short timeframe. Remember, EX is a wax by most means with some resin added. It's NOT a true sealant by any means. It's not a true polymer sealant.



Great idea, but as with other true sealants, most just use the sealants then top with wax if they choose later.





Regards,

Deanski
Click to expand...



Via personal experience with ( not hearsay) EX on my black LS400 is doing quite well. It actually maintains a cleaner appearance after a light rain than my Zaino on the Z28 ( very prone to non-damaging water spotting secondary to extreme (tiny) beading ability). EX has a different look than Zaino but just as pleasing. Very reflective and carnuaba deep. Very, very good product. Seems to be bonding well with my clearcoat Lexus paint.

What defines a sealant or not? polymers? resins? crosslinking? resins and carnuaba mixtures? a combination?

To call Poorboy's EX, Mother's Reflection, Clearkote's Moose series, etc are not sealants of some type because they are not polymeric in composition, I believe is inaccurate. JMO :nixweiss
 
blkZ28Conv said:
To call Poorboy's EX, Mother's Reflection, Clearkote's Moose series, etc are not sealants of some type because they are not polymeric in composition, I believe is inaccurate. JMO :nixweiss
Click to expand...



I'm not the biggest ClearKote fan in the world, but I give them credit on one point, they don't market their product as a sealant. Nor do they claim as such. They market them as waxes.



Mothers does not define the Reflections product as a sealant either, they define it as a "Polish/wax" with resins. Never do they use the word sealant.



Poorboys on the other hand, does claim itself to be a sealant. One with wax in it I might add. :rolleyes: How can the resin possibly work since the products contains wax? It can't. The resins won't crosslink in the presense of oils, which wax contains.



By that defination does every product with wax and resin become a sealant? In that case Meguiars #26 is a sealant too. 3M Perfect-It Show Car wax would also then be a sealant. Given that rational, do I consider Poorboys EX to be a sealant? No. I consider it to be a liquid wax with resin in it. Does that make it a bad product? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what kind of product your looking for. One thing is certian, it's not a sealant.



On the durability reports, I personally have not tried the product, nor do I intend to. I have however spoken with some of the most respected members of this community, and EX has not been a good preformer. Durability on average for these folks ranges from 1-2 weeks. Does not sound like the performance of a sealant to me. :down
 
You should add Zaino to your list of misleading products. It calls itself a Show Car Polish, but really doesn't have any polishing properties.
 
Scott P said:
You should add Zaino to your list of misleading products. It calls itself a Show Car Polish, but really doesn't have any polishing properties.
Click to expand...



Not really. There's a difference between what a product is named versus how a company tries to describe its product.



Other examples that come to mind are the "glazes" made by Zymol, Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze, Mothers Sealer & Glaze. The names may be confusing, but the companies clearly describe what these products are used for.



IMO, SRL is right on about EX. While results will always vary, I had very poor durability with this product. Also, it claims to not have any cleaning agents in it, but I have not found that to be true either.
 
Not to get into a chemistry discussion ( though I have extensive medical knowledge ( organic and inorganic chemistry a requirement)) but the existence of "oil" in a mixture does NOT exclude cross-linking of bondable substances within the mixture to bond (crss-link). A simple but good example is a scented candle. The scent in most cases are " volatile oils" but in the correct proportion does not inhibit the bonding of the candle wax. Needless to say, unless there is scientific rather than empirical thinking about this absolute rule of the "oil-free environmental" requirement for crosslinking please enlightned me. I am open for references.



Durability is something I rarely write about because I never allow my daily vehicles to go for more than a month without protectant rejuvenation. Detailing is like exercising. One can always find a reason not to do it but none of them really hold water ( please do not bring up harsh winters in some parts of the world. I grew up in New England (40+ years) and still kept my car protected prior to sealants). Fortunately, now I live in a temperate, non-industrial region and low acidic rain environment. So I can only extend my observations of EX's durability performance. Very good. :xyxthumbs. Ohio and Cali are known for their acidic precipitation. In these types of situations EX may not fair as well.:nixweiss. If you do not or can not detail very often maybe something like Klasse or Zaino would be better. :nixweiss

But please reference me to this oil-free rule requirement for molecular cross-linking and product bonding to a painted surface.

TIA :wavey



SEALANT

PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: slnt KEY

NOUN: 1. A substance, such as sealing wax, used to seal a surface to prevent passage of a liquid or gas.
 
Well the winter months can be hard for me to wax my and detail my truck. Unfortunatly I dont have a garage to do this in and most of the time its not fit to do it outside. If I get a decent day I will try to if I can get it clean.
 
MetalSludge said:
Well the winter months can be hard for me to wax my and detail my truck. Unfortunatly I dont have a garage to do this in and most of the time its not fit to do it outside. If I get a decent day I will try to if I can get it clean.
Click to expand...





Zaino and Klasse are known for their all-around durability in almost all environmental situations. The great thing about Zaino is that it looks great all by itself ( no topper required) wash (Z7) after wash (personal experience only) but requires a good prep when the weather is nice to get its full effect.
 
For crosslinking to a surface which in this case is paint, oil must NOT be present. In products with oil and resin, the resins attempt to crosslink to the oil rather than the surface media itself. Thus, since the resin is not actually crosslinked to the surface the durability is not as good because the resins are attempting to protect the oil itself. The property of the oil remains unchanged, so it will still degrade at a specific temprature, much like wax will. Oils, as we know, are not a durable as resins. It's a matter of heat, resistance to detergent, etc.



Thus, products containing oils are not as durable, and the resin itself is not crosslinked to the surface. Now, depending on the type of oil, some oil/resin products are more durable than others. For instance silicone oil is more durable than most oils. Now I'm getting into more complex things, and I'll quit rambling. :p



To put it in basic terms, in products with oil/resin the resin crosslinks to the oil rather than the surface itself. The oil will still have the same properties, thus degrade at a normal rate. So, these type of products will only last as long as the oils allows and the "polymer" plays no meaningful role. They are NOT typical, pure resin, sealants such as Klasse or Zaino.
 
Your little textbook answer for a sealant does not really mean much. By that theory I can wrap my car in plastic wrap and it's a sealant. After all, it does not allow passage of liquid or gas. Paint would be a sealant, rubber would be a sealant, plastic a sealant, etc. Every wax ever made would then be a sealant.
 
So how do you expect to spread the sealant on to the paint if there are absolutely no oils? I'm getting tired of the "crosslinking" thing. I think real world accounts with the products are more important than theories. Whatever works for you though.
 
Carriers are used to spread the sealant, which do not have to be oil. It can be either solvent or water, or in some cases both.
 
ShowroomLincoln said:
Your little textbook answer for a sealant does not really mean much. By that theory I can wrap my car in plastic wrap and it's a sealant. After all, it does not allow passage of liquid or gas. Paint would be a sealant, rubber would be a sealant, plastic a sealant, etc. Every wax ever made would then be a sealant.
Click to expand...



As I stated before please reference me to any article that states that bonding ( covalent or ionic) to a painted surface requires an oil-free environment. We can get into things like lipophobic and lipophilic poles of the resin and accompanying oils (wax) and the possibility of distinct layering within the microlayer of the applied product with its lipophobic pole weakly adhered to the paint and its lipophilic pole ( oil/wax) on the surface producing the carnauba-like appearance. True the lipophobic (wax) layer will degrade as a normal wax would but the resins attachment may still be present for protection. In other words this discussion is deeper than just the present or absence of oil ( i.e. wax).

There is no question that polymeric products like Zaino and Klasse produce a sap-like adhersion to an oil-free painted surface. But to adopt the term sealant to only refer to this type of adhersion is not all together fair. In our little world of detailing we have narrowed this word's definition to mean only polymeric with complete disregard of the majority of car/truck owners who may benefit from a increase of durability from resin/carnauba combination type sealant.

Because it is not a polymeric sealant make it not a sealant? :nixweiss

Very interesting discussion SRL. Like old times. :bounce
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
So how do you expect to spread the sealant on to the paint if there are absolutely no oils? I'm getting tired of the "crosslinking" thing. I think real world accounts with the products are more important than theories. Whatever works for you though.
Click to expand...



Although SRL is speaking in theoretical terms, his explanations are right on. Also, oils do not play the main role when it comes to the spreadability of a product.



Also, Edwin, I don't mean any disrespect, but I think I have to disagree with your reasoning. By your analogy, it would seem that every single wax is actually a crosslinking sealant? My understanding of candle-wax (ha! not that I have tons of intimate knowledge of candle wax! lol) is that it once you form it and it cools down, it doesn't 'crosslink' into a highly organized chain of repeating molecules? Isn't more like regular carnauba wax which just 'bonds' to your car and not crosslink into a durable chain of highly structured, uniform repeating molecules like Klasse and Zaino?
 
I wanted to chime in here to go over a few things. In most cases, the presence of an "oil" will inhibit the crosslinking, bonding, curing adn physical properties of a polymer. On a molecular level, the oils inhibit the polymer from becoming the solid structure that it wants to be. In large proportions, an oil will hinder the crosslinking (act as a barrier between chains) and you will be left with a pile of goo. In smaller proportions, if the oil was even compatible with the system in the first place, the oil will weaken the backbone structure of the polymer by preserving the "fluid" (flowing) properties to the crosslinking substance. This will effect overall hardness, durability, cure time, and bonding. I would say that most oils are not even soluble in polymer formulas. This means that the oils could migrate to the surface while the polymer cures underneath. A diminish in shine after a wash or rain storm would lead one to believe that the protection is gone if the oil was the only source of shine (a half a$$ polymer formulation in my opinion.



As for the candle wax theory....well candle wax is not a polymer, it is a wax. Basically its just a solid structure at room temperature not a crosslinked compound. Candles wax is poured hot into a mold along with other ingredients and then cooled to a solid form. This is like comparing apples to oranges when talking about it in relation to polymer chemistry.



As for the ionic / covalent thing....none of these are happening in a polymer formulation as it is curing on your paint. Any bonding is caused by an adhesive property inherent in the formula (glue, caulk,etc,etc...all similar examples. Ionic or covalent bonding suggests that your paint and the sealant are coming together to form a new compound which simply is not the case.



Hope this helps....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top