Klasee not working?

rightlane said:
It sounds like the Klasse did not bond properly.
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Patrick I was trying to refer to geekysteve description of Medic's complaint. Sorry for the misunderstanding.



BTW: Patrick, I know you tried very hard to make Klasse work.



good luck guys!
 
It can be frustrating when you invest in something that you are 1) not having fun with and 2) doesn't seem to work.



But when you do hit the bulls eye the effect is almost like magic, I'm sure of it.



Let me as you two questions a) what car shampoo do you use and b) what QD do you use (on this particular finish you're having problems with)?
 
I used AIO/SG for the first time this weekend and found it ridiculously easy. I did my white Porsche and I thought I was going to have massive problems getting it off since I usually put things on kind of heavy on that car since it is hard to see. I put it on heavy enough that I could see it go on figuring I could always use my PC to take it off but the stuff was just vanishing as it dried. I thought I was going nuts so I did my lights and side mirrors and when it dried it was pretty much invisible on them as well. I'll see if the later coats are harder to take off but I used a dry MF for the first coats and had no problems. I used a 1500 watt light in the garage to help see the stuff off on the white paint but it was nice to work with IMHO.



I'll try the silver car this weekend and see how it goes.
 
Patrick, a few ideas I had:



1) Does the truck need claying or has it been clayed recently? It just makes for a smoother, easier to work on surface and less dirt.



2) I would use AIO over the whole vehicle if I had it - needed or not. Even if you consider the paint to be pristine, it would very lightly polish the paint and (more importantly) chemically clean the surface in preparation for SG.



3) How did you remove the existing wax? Dawn won't always strip wax off 100% sometimes. Related to above.



4) I think you may be applying too much SG. An old addage about using Klasse SG is that, "If you can see the layer of SG on the paint, it's too much." I can't remember who among the old-timers here said that, but it's true. You should be only be able to see a very faint haze at the most. If you've applied it so thin that you have to breathe on it to see it, it's still enough. I've had good luck thinning out my coats with a water-dampened foam pad. Sure, this sounds like I'm diluting it, but it worked and I got it ultra-thin.





On another note, I'm kinda glad I'm very happy with Klasse because it was kinda pricey and I was lucky to get it as cheaply as I did. I would've hated having trouble and being forced to ditch it...
 
4DSC: I dont recall if i Dawned, I dont think I did because i was going to clean the paint anyway. But I normally wash with Armor All Auto Wash, Ive heard Dawn may not clean polymers, and thats what i use. I didnt clay, the paint was very clean. I use Wizards Finich cut which leaves the paint disgustingly squeeky clean, like running fingernails on a chalk board :scared . I did use 1X AIO prior to SG'ing.... I take it back, I did use two coats of SG, i was furious after the first one, came on Autopia and told of my results, and someone told me to give it a second coat (They talked me into it)lol.....I still saw product on the paint, after cotton removal and MF final, and the QD'ing it.....I just find the additional work slightly unnecessary......Sorry guys, it didnt find a way to my heart ! :nixweiss Now heres a dumb question...I have a black Miata on Friday, ive used BF on it before, the owner loved it as I did, :xyxthumbs How is Klasse on Black ?????
 
Other than suggesting going thinner on the coats, I'm out of ideas Patrick, sorry I couldn't help any more. :(



In the past, it has often been recommended to use Klasse on dark coloured cars... mind you this was when there was this big K vs. Z thing going on too. :p It's up to you if you want to give it another shot on the Miata.
 
It might also be worth doing a search on Snake (not seen him post in a long time), he supplied many hints and tips on using Klasse.



Steven
 
As you might guess from my ID, I have exactly what you are speaking of - a black Miata. I have read all the Klasse bashing and bantering about difficulty to use, but I have not seen the issues. I do not think though, that this is the product for pro detailers, as it is not easy to work fast, and have not found that SG in particualr works well with a PC. Black makes it easy to see going on. It is amazing how little is needed to coat with the SG. For the most part, it disappears even before you buff it. I have taken to using a bit of QD... not only because it makes taking the reaminder off a snap, but because it adds additional luster to the layers of SG in my opinion.



Anyway, I would invite you over to demonstrate, but it seems that it would be quite a distance. Be patient.. and good luck with the Miata. You will love that too!



Jeff
 
4DSC said:
Other than suggesting going thinner on the coats, I'm out of ideas Patrick, sorry I couldn't help any more. :(
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In an earlier post Patrick mentioned that he left the SG on for an hour before buffing. Depending on the ambient conditions, that may not have been long enough (which is a pain :) ). My favorite way to do it is to wash and apply Friday night then buff Saturday morning.



Also, I have had some instances of hazing- I believe this to have occurred (in my case, anyway) from re-coating too soon.



$0.02,

Robert
 
Quick Detailier is often a good indicator for wax protection. You can see the way it is "absorbed" onto the waxed surface is different from an unwaxed surface.



Meguiar's Gold Class Shampoo causes sheeting action which goes against Klasse. But it doesn't mean Klasse is not protecting.



My suggestion stands at switching your car Shampoo if you want your car to bead, I like PBS.



In my experience there is no real need to let SG sit longer than 20 minutes (it should cure for a day after you buff though). As long as it is dry it's fine. At any time that you find the SG difficult to remove you can spritz water on your microfiber and that will help. Many apply SG with QD on the applicator and/or remove it with QD. I cannot vouch for the effectiveness of this process, but I would think that it wouldn't be the best thing. Polymerization is a chemical reaction. Adding QD to the mix may hinder the reaction. It is beyond our scope as home detailers and such to test the reaction.





And just for kicks check point the procedure.



After prep (clay, SMR, whatever) AIO was worked in twice with a damp applicator, then buffed and allowed to sit for 20 minutes. SG was applied with a dry applicator in 1 singe thin layer, sit for 20 minutes, then buffed (using water if necessary). Then the next day SG was applied again, waited 20 minutes then buffed.
 
68GTO said:
I still have no idea what you mean by protection and what is your criteria for protection: shine, beading, sheeting, warm fuzzy feeling, or what? What do you use to judge that Klasse is working?
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Back when I was using Klasse, I didn't have any problem with the way water sheeted off my car when rinsing. Water sheeted off really well and my car practically dried itself, save for a few spots here and there. I don't really know what to tell you since you aren't getting the same sheeting action.



According to the ebook, you can try rubbing a clean dry terry towel on your car's surface and see if it produces a squeaking noise. If it does, then that would be a good indication that your paint is dry and needs to be waxed again. I'm not too crazy about the idea of rubbing a dry towel on a dry surface, but I'm all out of ideas.
 
BY Porterdog:

In an earlier post Patrick mentioned that he left the SG on for an hour before buffing. Depending on the ambient conditions, that may not have been long enough (which is a pain ). My favorite way to do it is to wash and apply Friday night then buff Saturday morning.



I bascially do the some thing that porterdog does for the reason that SG is so easy to remove after a longer wait.



THE ONLY TIME :I had a problem removing SG was a time when I only waited almost two hours. It was getting dark and I had waited almost the two hours before buffing. When I tried to buff the product was kind of gummy for lack of a better description. The SG would smear some as I buffed and was difficult to remove. After this incident I waited longer and used the two towel method which is one damp towel and one dry. Now I dont always have time to let SG dry overnight but when I do have the time SG is easier to remove. Because of the above experience I always wait longer than the two hours( it is just much easier to buff if you wait longer).



BTW: I have never had the haze problem and I have used Klasse for about a year and half and love the twins.
 
Maybe its just safe to say that Klasse wasnt really meant for business applications. Maybe more for the individual who has an entire weekend or two, to nurse their car/truck......I may have missed that introduction about Klasse in a prior post. Im sure, as it sounds from the hundreds of posts' that ive read, that its a competant product. We will ALWAYS have our opinions about proper humidity and temp applications, even product temp., sheeting, beading, longevity, lustre, depth, what to remove it with first, and follow it with later, what QD is best to use while removing, or even if we should use QD as opposed to H2O, how it feels after 2xSG vs. 4xSG. Need I go on ? Is anyone getting my point here ? LOL.....It's not meant for me !!

I just dont know if I can promise you that i would recommend it to anyone.....So to all who love it, use it, have fun and share your observations....And I thank you for them.
 
White968 said:
I used AIO/SG for the first time this weekend and found it ridiculously easy. I did my white Porsche and I thought I was going to have massive problems getting it off since I usually put things on kind of heavy on that car since it is hard to see. I put it on heavy enough that I could see it go on figuring I could always use my PC to take it off but the stuff was just vanishing as it dried. I thought I was going nuts so I did my lights and side mirrors and when it dried it was pretty much invisible on them as well. I'll see if the later coats are harder to take off but I used a dry MF for the first coats and had no problems. I used a 1500 watt light in the garage to help see the stuff off on the white paint but it was nice to work with IMHO.



I'll try the silver car this weekend and see how it goes.
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I used AIO for my car yesterday and it was super-easy. I used a damp MF pad to apply it and another dry MF to take it off.



I will apply the SG tmrw, hope it'll be as easy as the AIO.
 
68GTO said:
Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. I will give "wet" buffing of SG a try and see if that helps. As for the sheeting, I'm still not sure why I had failure so soon. I find it interesting that we always seem to wind up with contradictory info on these products. One person says wait 20 min before buffing, another says no wait overnite. One person says Klasse beads, another person says no Klasse sheets. Makes me believe more and more that there is more VOODOO than anything else about all this detailing "science." The only common trait we all seem to share in unanimity is our willingness to shell out more and more $$ in the endless pursuit of the next best thing.
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It's no soo bad. Detailing is about having fun and makeing your car look it's best. The problems with 1 product for every car on this planet is that they're all different in some way or other. Even the same make and model cars vary. And on top of that each vehicle is exposed to different environments. It seems next to impossible thing that 1 product will work best for every variation out there.



There's reasoning behind every direction and explanation (at least on my end), which is based upon experience more than anything else.



We all agree that Klasse take time to bond to the surface. The basic reguirement for this 20 minutes (at least until the Klasse dries). So at that point it's up to you whether or not to let it sit there. The longer you do, the more chance you have of letting dust and debris settle on the car. But see, this is where microfiber comes into play. The plush long fibers not only buff like magic but grab and trap dust keeping the dust from marring the finish. So yes you can wait as long as you want but it's best to minimize that aspect. So then at that point (buffed off or not) it is important to let the layer cure for (we all have agreed) 24 hours. The actual polymerization time is not known, but like with all chemical reactions it's highly dependent on temperature and other factors (in this case, humidity and concentration). So rather than quantifiying that amout we all settle on 24 hours. It is something you can actually see. 2 coats on back to back days actually do look better than 2 coats on back to back hours. You will also notice that after a week the finish looks better than after you just buffed. It also looks better in colder conditions (probably due to temperature effects the polymer chain.



Now for the beading and sheeting issue. This is one that will never settle, but lemme take approach a hypothesis (the operative word is hypothesis). The amount of hydrophobic quality a coating has can be quantified. (I'm not sure of the units of measure, and i'm kinda lazy to look it up ;) ). Anyways, according to someone who emailed some specialist on surface tension of water (do a search, it might not even be on this board) anyways it seems as if beading has "X" amount of repelling properties. The bead of water "clings" to the surface (yet it repels). The droplet stays round but doesn't roll off readily without some sort of force, other than gravity, to remove it (sheer from the wind for example). Now there's sheeting. It's really similar in that it does repel water. But the main difference is that water does not remain spherical. The water sorta rolls off. Try this: rub the back of your hand with some chapstick, then get it wet. What happens is the water beads and sticks. This is not sheeting, this is beading. If you put a drop of water on something that sheets, the water can stay in ball form but it seems to roll, hence sheet off. According to the expert, sheeting exists in a higher "X" amount than beading. In other words quantitatively it has a higher value and therefore repels water (according to the numbers) "more". And if you think about it, it sorta makes sense. Two things repel water, one clings and one rolls. Which one is more hydrophobic? The one that sheets is more.



Now there's the last part and it looks different from sheeting or beading. It's called wetting out. It's what a surface looks like when there is no water repelency. It can look like sheeting but basically it looks more like absorbing. Wash a piece of glass with Dawn, put a drop of water on it, it sets in and wets out.



So after all that, I call what Klasse does is sheet-bead. That's because yeah it sheets, but when exposed to droplets it does bead. Course there a ton of influences upon this little phenomenon and that's why the questions of car wash and quickdetailer, even application come up. The basic conclusion to this whole thing is................observe how your car reacts to water. It should react this way over a specific period of time. If it starts to react differently, all things kept equal, the wax might have failed.



So you pretty much hit every "scientific" discussion covered last year. Most of them are still up in the air, but those are my takes.



We have yet to discuss how much protection and how much bang for your $$$ Klasse can really take on. That was probably more contriversal then the rest. Course the CD test was a good one too.



Many of the older threads have been "cleaned up". But if you do a search you might find some of those discussions.





Happy detailing and good luck. :)
 
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