Is Extended-Mileage Oils a New Requirement for Vehicle Gas Engines Built after 2015?

L

Lonnie

Active member
My brother-in-law stated his newer 2017Chyrsler Pacifica 3.7L PentistarV6 engine required the use a full-synthetic extended-mileage 0W-20 oil. I looked on the bottle of Mobil1 he bought and sure enough, it stated that it was for engines made in 2015 and later.

Is there a new oil spec for this, OR is this just because vehicle manufacturer`s are permitting seemingly longer engine oil-change intervals now and the ONLY way to "guarantee" (AKA, new car warranty) that is to use an extended-mileage synthetic oil.

I understand the "water-thin" 0W-20 part is needed to get the gas mileage out of engines via the reduced viscosity. But I am more concerned that this new requirement is needed to take care of the "Auto Engine Shut-off at Stop and Re-Start" feature, again, engineered to meet government fuel economy standards for newer vehicles. Most engine wear takes place at start-up, especially when cold. My brother-in-law HATES this feature, and apparently, there is no way to turn off or deactivate this "Engine-Stop-Start" feature and his concerns about engine wear and starter wear, I believe, are well founded.

Any thoughts about the extended-mileage oil requirement and its relationship to the engine Stop-Start feature??
 
I`m not familiar with what Chrysler is doing but I just checked the maint. info on another brand with start-stop and they don`t say anything about "extended-mileage", only 0W-20 SN.
 
Lonnie, I`m no help, but you might find the answer on Bob is the Oil Guy forums (sorta the Autopia of engine oils).

Good luck
 
Mostly in the name of epa and cafe. 0w20 can squeeze a small % of fuel economy out of engines speced for them. They design and build them for that thin oil. Longer drain intervals show lower cost of ownership

And it’s a 3.6 Pentastar engine




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It might be a healthy dose of marketing on Mobil 1`s part.

My wife`s Toyota Highlander uses 0w20 oil as well and that generation of vehicle first went into production in 2007.

Oil companies often get certifications from manufacturers to show their oil meets requirements for use in the aftermarket and at dealerships. Maybe the new certifications for that weight of Mobil1 weren`t around until 2015? All the automakers update their standards over time. Of course all the older ones are still valid as well.
 
Is 2015 when the newest dexos testing came out ? Could be that as well or it could be when SN plus came out and the vehicles that require it

I’m not aware of main stream OEs using Mobil 1. Just off the top of my head AMG, Porsche, and corvette. Probably more but not like a Chrysler Pacifica or Ford Ecosport is coming with it


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Thanks for your responses .
My bad about the engine displacement of 3.7L, as MattPersman pointed out it is a Pentastar 3.6L.
 
MattPersman said:
I’m not aware of main stream OEs using Mobil 1. Just off the top of my head AMG, Porsche, and corvette.
Click to expand...

I dunno, I have a GM high-feature 3.6 that had Mobil 1 factory fill, I presume they all did, at that time.

IMG_2335_resize.JPG
 
Even if the OE slaps a label on the filler cap or calls out one specific brand that doesn`t mean it`s the only option available. Many oil companies pay good money to get certified to a certain standard by the OE`s like BMW`s LL-0X, or VW`s 50X.XX standards and they will renew them periodically when the OE`s standards change. This allows the oil to be use without causing any waranty issues.

Since dealerships buy oil in bulk, you`d be surprised by what they might be using. I know BMW dealerships used to use Mobil 1 and Castrol in the US. My VW has a Castrol label on the filler cap, but they use other brands based on price. My last oil change recieved Havoline synthetic. The particular version they used carries the VW 502.00 certification or newer required by my car, so it isn`t a big deal.
 
I don`t know what we`re talking about anymore...I think I posted earlier in the thread that GM gets free factory-fill oil by letting Mobil put "Mobil 1" on the filler cap. Of course there are plenty of synthetic oils that meet the spec that GM calls out in the manual, I only posted that picture because a previous poster doubted that "mainstream OE`s" were using Mobil 1...of course my car is old, who knows what they are doing now.
 
The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
Dan F
Click to expand...
Typical American corporate answer to a Federal Mandate to meet EPA gas mileage requirement. Yes, there is no doubt that gas mileage is improved, BUT as you point out Stokdgs, the "hidden cost" is in the wear-and-tear on the engine starter and electrical system to the owner down the road. So I spend $800.00 to get that system replaced every 5-years, but save $350 in fuel over that time (60,000 miles of driving based on an industry consumer travel average of 12,000 per year) to gain 0.35 mile per gallon over the same vehicle without that feature.

Kind of like the math I went though with my wife on buying a 3-year-old used larger AWD sedan (Ford Taurus) versus a used Subaru Outback with the same odometer miles, but it cost $5,500 more (The Subby is what I wanted to buy!). When you factor in the extra payment cost on a loan over 3-years on the $5,500, I can buy buy an AWFUL lot of gas for the difference, even though the Subaru got 10 more miles per gallon based on about $3.00 per gallon. Here`s how:
At 1,000 miles per month, the Subaru with its 34 MPG would cost $88.24 per month , based on $3.00 per gallon of gasoline.
The Taurus with its 24 MPG would cost $125.00 per month, based again $3.00 per gallon. The difference is $36.76 per month.
The car loan payment on $5,500 (the excess purchase price of the Subaru over the Taurus) over 36 months at 3.00 % is $159.95 per month. Based on the difference between the loan payment and the gas cost difference ($159.95 -$36.76), the difference of $123.19 will buy 41.06 gallons of gas @ $3.00/gal, and at 24 MPG, the Taurus can travel an extra 985.52 miles per month over the Subaru, all things (costs) being considered.
Penny wise and pound foolish. What looks like it has a better MPG performance, but cost more to purchase and hence has a higher loan payment per month, are you REALLY saving?? Numbers do not lie.

Yes, I KNOW the Subaru will retain its value MUCH,MUCH better 3 years from now over the Taurus, especially if (or more likely when and not too far in the future, if the next elected government officials have their way) gas gets to $5.00 per gallon, so yes I admit, there are extenuating and important economic factors to consider.
 
Desertnate said:
Even if the OE slaps a label on the filler cap or calls out one specific brand that doesn`t mean it`s the only option available. Many oil companies pay good money to get certified to a certain standard by the OE`s like BMW`s LL-0X, or VW`s 50X.XX standards and they will renew them periodically when the OE`s standards change. This allows the oil to be use without causing any waranty issues.

Since dealerships buy oil in bulk, you`d be surprised by what they might be using. I know BMW dealerships used to use Mobil 1 and Castrol in the US. My VW has a Castrol label on the filler cap, but they use other brands based on price. My last oil change recieved Havoline synthetic. The particular version they used carries the VW 502.00 certification or newer required by my car, so it isn`t a big deal.
Click to expand...

I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.
 
rlmccarty2000 said:
I’m an oil snob. I don’t trust the dealer or local grease monkey to put the correct oil in my vehicles, I buy my oil (and filter) and take it to whoever is going to install it. I also try to watch and make sure they actually use my oil that I brought and not the bulk stuff. My OCD is not limited to paint.
Click to expand...


You are are not the only one who doesn`t trust those places. That`s probably what I`ll do when I can no longer change it myself.
 
Stokdgs said:
The only thing that Start/Stop Feature does really well is wear out your starter motor and battery quicker.. And then, your Alternator has to run more often at full charge to keep that Battery charged up.. Of course, if you don`t keep the vehicle long, this will never be an issue for you..

I would like to see studies in years that show how much $$ was actually "saved" with this Feature on, and then compare that number to the cost of replacing starter motors and batteries more often..
Click to expand...

Lonnie said:
Typical American corporate answer to a Federal Mandate to meet EPA gas mileage requirement. Yes, there is no doubt that gas mileage is improved, BUT as you point out Stokdgs, the "hidden cost" is in the wear-and-tear on the engine starter and electrical system to the owner down the road. So I spend $800.00 to get that system replaced every 5-years, but save $350 in fuel over that time (60,000 miles of driving based on an industry consumer travel average of 12,000 per year) to gain 0.35 mile per gallon over the same vehicle without that feature.
Click to expand...

One of the consequences of there being less engineers and less manufacturing, is less people are exposed to engineering and manufacturing. When you decide to utilize a stop-start system, you change the specification for the vehicle, which results in design and engineering changes to meet the new specification. Here`s a Wiki article on the topic, if you scroll down to "enhanced components", you can see some of the things that are typically done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

IMO you guys aren`t giving enough credit to the engineers and designers that make these systems work, by just presuming that nothing is changed except some suit told someone to change the software so that the starter and alternator get worn out.
 
Setec Astronomy --
I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?

This is the same Company that lengthened the miles between oil changes, because they didn`t want to keep paying for all those oil changes.. Never mind the internals are mucking around in oil that should have been changed sooner..

I will hope that all Manufacturers will actually make this better for everyone, but am not going to be holding my breath.. :)
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
Setec Astronomy --
I know of a really good mechanic who writes for the Roundel Magazine, who has said many times in his hands on experiences with Bimmers Start/Stop option, that all he does is replace the parts when they wear out.. Perhaps some manufacturers will actually upgrade the parts, but if that is going to cost so much $$, well then what should they do?
Click to expand...

Well, to channel Henny Youngman...that mechanic isn`t going to be replacing parts that aren`t worn out. There are always going to be some failures. When I used to do sales, sometimes a potential customer would ask me what I thought of a competitor`s product, and I would tell them, I hear these kind of bad things...but to be honest with them, I would say, happy customers aren`t going to be coming to me, so the only competitor customers I talk to are the unhappy ones. Just like the mechanic is only going to fix the broken cars, so from his perspective, all the cars he sees are broken, and "all he does is replace the parts when they wear out".

We`re all going to look at the glass, and some of us will see the glass as half full, and see the promise of new technologies. And some of us will see the glass as half empty, and ask why did they have to change something that worked? I`m going to look at it and say we CAN make cars with stop-start engines without wearing out the starter and alternator, and you`re going to look at it as an unfortunate idea.

My pet peeve is those darn anti-siphon valves on the outside hose faucets. They always leak! Why do I have to have one on my faucet because some numb-nuts left his pesticide spray gun hooked up and the faucet open when he lost pressure in his house and siphoned his bug spray back into his potable water supply and poisoned himself? That`s like a one-in-a-million shot, and now we all have to pay for it, so to speak.

Anyway, I thought we were making America great again, turning it back into a can-do country, instead of a can`t-do country. So I`d like to think we can do stop-start engines that work.
 
Setec Astronomy,
Thanks for your reply tonight !
I am all for new technologies; spent my entire working life finding the best Bandwidth technologies for the companies I worked for..

I know what you mean about anti-siphon valves ! I have one soldered on my front yard faucet, so I have to get out the tools to change that sometime when it goes out..
Have changed all 6 diaphragms of the Sprinkler System anti siphon valves over the past couple of years..

One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..
They just didn`t do their homework on the real characteristics of plastic..

Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..

My next door neighbor went on a 3 week vacation and came back to his entire master bathroom ceiling soaked through and collapsed onto the floor of his bathroom.. And all that water still leaking onto the floor, out the bathroom, into the bedroom,.. Yeah, talk about a ticking time bomb..
I think if I had known there was Pex out here, I would have not bought a house here..

Loved the article, thank you.
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
One thing I wish they had done more research on that affects everyone out here where I live, is Pex fresh water plumbing.. Great idea, I guess.. Way cheaper, way faster to install than soldered copper..

Used clamps that were not designed to work with plastic pipe that wants to ALWAYS expand back to its original shape.. So it fights the clamps and eventually cuts itself there and starts leaking... and leaking...and leaking until you catch it..
Click to expand...

You`re right of course, PEX isn`t better, it`s just cheaper. Just like those flex gas pipes they attach stoves with, sure that`s way faster than black pipe, until the kids lose a ball back there and pull out the stove to get it...and overstretch the flex pipe...

Maybe stop-start is a dumb idea done for a high ideal. The world is full of tradeoffs, sometimes we humans do things for the wrong reasons, like I`m sure it was a high ideal that caused Boeing to create for the 737 Max software that would help inexperienced pilots to fly more safely. Then some people in charge decided that to more effectively compete with Airbus they would try to minimize how big the changes were, and basically hide facts about the system from the FAA, the airlines, and the pilots.

I guess I`m just an optimist about technology. Almost 50 years ago my father woke me up in the middle of the night and carried me down to the TV (I had a broken foot), to watch the first man walk on the moon. It was a time when it seemed like we as a nation, could do anything.

I lived through the first horrible CAFE and Clean Air Act confluence, the horrible cars made in the late 70`s through I guess the late 80`s, and then I remember the wonderful cars we had in the 90`s and 00`s and up to today, really...Dodge Hellcats with over 700 HP; who, 40 years before, would have thought that was possible?

I`m confident that when we come out on the other side of this current CAFE period, we`re going to have fantastic cars that are fast, fun, and get great mileage. But maybe in the middle here we`re going to have some dumb stuff that doesn`t work so well and is annoying. Hopefully it doesn`t work out like PEX and garden faucets.
 
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