How does Klasse compair to NXT

I'm new to this, but it seems to me that if your going to use the Klasse twins and anything else it would seem best to do AIO --> KSG (as many coats as you want) --> then NXT, carnauba, whatever gets your jollies off.
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I don't think NXT works on top of KSG because of the modest cleaning it does. To top the Klasse twins I think you need a more pure carnuba (P21S or S100) rather than another polymer (with cleaners).
 
abbeysdad said:
Oh NXT beads really well...for 3-4 weeks I think, then it seems to stop beading!? So if the 'sheet vs. bead story' is true, why does it bead at all. If it beads, why does it stop so soon? When it stops beading, the car seems to get dirtier quicker as more stuff seems to stick. The stuff that sticks is a bit more stubborn to wash off.



So if it's designed to 'sheet' and not 'bead', one has to ask why does it bead for weeks?



If a car has an LSP designed to sheet so it looks no different than an unprotected finish, what indicators are used to determine the need to renew the LSP.
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When I wash my NXT'd car I have observed the water pool together then sheet off the car. The only time I've witnessed tight beading is when the car has been sitting outside during a light mist. Water will cling to an unprotected surface not sheet off and leave a clean surface after a wash. A microfiber drying towel will also drag more and not work as effectively when a surface in unprotected.



The squeak test is a good method to use to judge if there is still protection on the car.
 
SDLexus said:
The squeak test is a good method to use to judge if there is still protection on the car.
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Nope. Clean surfaces squeek. Dish soap makers have used that for years in their TV ads. One of them had a slogan "so clean it squeeks" as I recall.
 
SDLexus said:
When I wash my NXT'd car I have observed the water pool together then sheet off the car. The only time I've witnessed tight beading is when the car has been sitting outside during a light mist. Water will cling to an unprotected surface not sheet off and leave a clean surface after a wash. A microfiber drying towel will also drag more and not work as effectively when a surface in unprotected.



The squeak test is a good method to use to judge if there is still protection on the car.
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car wash soaps tend to promote a sheeting action.
 
SDLexus said:
NXT is meant to sheet water not bead. All of Meguiar's line (with the exception of one wax in the consumer line) is formulated to sheet water instead of bead. Beading is not a good indicator of whether or not a wax/sealant is still present.
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I completely disagree about beading as a good indicator. How do you know that a "sheeting" product is still on the surface? What IS your indicator? Products that DO bead indicate high water repellency and high surface tension. So, when/if the beading stops, the product is failing, and time to reapply. I don't want to play guessing games about whether or not my LSP is on the surface or not and protecting my finish...I'll leave that to others.



I also do not buy the "formulated to sheet" line. Sounds like to much of an excuse as to why the product(s) do not last, moreso than how they are supposedly designed. I think the formulated to sheet argument, is more of a marketing coverup than anything else. I do not want to hear excuses or fancy marketing lines, but I do want to see results and performance.



I agree with this article written by Sal at Zaino (so, not my work, although I agree 100% with him).



from Zaino website...



Water Beading and Sheeting... as a Measure of Durability



Almost all polishes, waxes, etc. bead water initially. As they are removed, breakdown or dissipated by washing, exposure to sunlight and heat, expansion and contraction, abrasion, abrasion from pollen and other pollutants, the water beading is diminished. This is due to the reduction in surface tension of the polish or wax once it is removed or breaks down.



If the surface has any protection when there is no water beading is the subject of much controversy. Especially when the polish or wax exhibits good water beading immediately after the initial application. If there is any protection left, how would one know? There are no scientific tests to my knowledge that can determine this. Most consumers and especially wax/polish manufacturers use the reduction in the height, contact angle and diameter of water beading as a gauge to know when to re-apply polish/wax for continued protection.



If a polish/wax gives water beading initially but then stops beading after washing, part of the polish formula has been removed. If this happens, is there any protection left???? Was the chemical or film that caused the water beading also the protection????



If a manufacturer claims that their polish/wax will bead water initially and then magically change to sheeting... I say impossible!!!! Let them prove that the polish/wax film protection initially applied is still there...



Until a specific test is developed and not some fake, razzle-dazzle test, these questions will remain unanswered and I will continue to use water beading, (height, contact angle and diameter) as a major factor in gauging a polish/wax protection.



P.S. Please remember that healthy paint will bead water without any polish/wax applied. This confuses many people to believe a polish/wax is lasting longer than they think.



To test your polish/wax, you must measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) without any polish/wax applied. Next, measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) within 24 hours after initially applying your polish/wax. This is your starting point. This will also be the gauge for determining the water beading (longevity, duration and changes) for that specific product. As the water beads start to diminish (get wider and shallower and loses contact angle), the polish/wax and its film protection factor is going away. When the water beading is the same as before you apply your product, the polish/wax and its protection are gone.
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Mike
 
foxtrapper said:
Nope. Clean surfaces squeek. Dish soap makers have used that for years in their TV ads. One of them had a slogan "so clean it squeeks" as I recall.
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That is correct, if it squeeks there is no protection.
 
TigerMike said:
I completely disagree about beading as a good indicator. How do you know that a "sheeting" product is still on the surface? What IS your indicator? Products that DO bead indicate high water repellency and high surface tension. So, when/if the beading stops, the product is failing, and time to reapply. I don't want to play guessing games about whether or not my LSP is on the surface or not and protecting my finish...I'll leave that to others.
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As I stated above it takes simple observation to tell if a surface is protected. If the water clings to the surface that's a pretty good indicator that the protection is gone. NXT and M21 are formulated to sheet water. The water pools together and runs off the surface leaving behind a moisture free clean surface. I don't need beads to tell me if a surface is protected or not; new car paint with a clean surface sans wax will still bead water. Someone posted photos on here showing the sheeting action of M21 I believe. I'm sure a search will bring them up if you're so inclined.



I also do not buy the "formulated to sheet" line. Sounds like to much of an excuse as to why the product(s) do not last, moreso than how they are supposedly designed. I think the formulated to sheet argument, is more of a marketing coverup than anything else. I do not want to hear excuses or fancy marketing lines, but I do want to see results and performance.



I agree with this article written by Sal at Zaino (so, not my work, although I agree 100% with him).











Mike
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Reading your above statement just indicates to me that it depends on who's "Koolaid" you're drinking. Just as you have no reason not to believe Sal's statements I have no reason not to believe Mike Phillips when he informed us at one of Meguiar's detailing days that their LSP's are designed to sheet water. It's the characteristic that I've personally observed when using NXT and M21 and one that I actually prefer to beads that will sit on the cars surface.
 
Ive since used NXT on my new Santa Fe, deepwater blue, very nice look!, however i need somthing more durable, and have since ordered Klasse twins, just waiting for a nice day to detail, and compare pics i took w NXT, heres one with NXT, and btw it has beaded for a few weeks now, doesnt really sheet imo, doubt ill found out if it does, once i apply AIO it will be gone

P9270027.jpg


P9270012.jpg
 
Here is the post with photos that a member took to show the sheeting action of M21. I have observed similar properties from NXT.
 
Perm said:
Not sure about Klasse SG over NXT, but you can layer NXT over Klasse AIO which does look fantastic.



Perm
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Agreed. Beautiful looking combo and pretty durable too. AIO/NXT work very well together.
 
SDLexus said:
Reading your above statement just indicates to me that it depends on who's "Koolaid" you're drinking. Just as you have no reason not to believe Sal's statements I have no reason not to believe Mike Phillips when he informed us at one of Meguiar's detailing days that their LSP's are designed to sheet water.
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I'm not drinking anyone's "Koolaid," but thanks for that reference. I don't even use Zaino, and haven't in several years. My personal beliefs on wax protection just happen to agree 100% with Sal's statements. If you like to take chances with whether or not your paint is actually protected and when, that's your business.



Again, I don't buy one bit what MP says about their products. Of course he's going to say they are "designed" to sheet. Think.....what else is he going to say??? That they just don't last or offer much durability? Yeah, that'll sell products huh? There comes a point where each of us has to separate the truth from marketing mumbo jumbo. I was a big Meguiar's user years ago, so drinking coolaid has nothing to do with anything. I am able to think and process for myself, not buy into "razzle dazzle" marketing lines, as Sal puts it.



And, that "post" showing the sheeting action, looks like water pooling to me, and I'd be inclined to say that the finish has little to no actual protection. In my experiences, that type of performance is just unacceptable. If it's acceptable to you or anyone else, that's fine. We just have different standards I guess.
 
SDLexus said:
Here is the post with photos that a member took to show the sheeting action of M21. I have observed similar properties from NXT.
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This photo does not show sheeting...... all cars (wax, sealed or nothing on the paint) will display these properties when blasted with a hose. Water will sheet off.



The only ones who can show scientific provide evidence that NXT does last and change properties from beading to sheeting action is Megs........ I doubt they will ever be forthcoming with the facts as it is clearly commercially sensitive for them.



Perm
 
SDLexus said:
As I stated above it takes simple observation to tell if a surface is protected. If the water clings to the surface that's a pretty good indicator that the protection is gone. NXT and M21 are formulated to sheet water. The water pools together and runs off the surface leaving behind a moisture free clean surface. I don't need beads to tell me if a surface is protected or not; new car paint with a clean surface sans wax will still bead water. Someone posted photos on here showing the sheeting action of M21 I believe. I'm sure a search will bring them up if you're so inclined.







Reading your above statement just indicates to me that it depends on who's "Koolaid" you're drinking. Just as you have no reason not to believe Sal's statements I have no reason not to believe Mike Phillips when he informed us at one of Meguiar's detailing days that their LSP's are designed to sheet water. It's the characteristic that I've personally observed when using NXT and M21 and one that I actually prefer to beads that will sit on the cars surface.
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If the Meguiars products were designed to sheet why do they bead in the rain-loose irregular beads? Sure any product can sheet after washing-that's a car wash affect. If a product has consistant beading charactaristics then you K N O W that the "wax"film hasn't changed. Certain products do that fairly well-others don't.
 
Joe's photos show clearly sheeting. Even raw material manufacturers talk about this type of behavior (bead/sheet). The goal is to break up the water film (just as WAUD-type products do) - and as long as a product is able to produce an effect which forces the water to form a stable, rounded (hydrophobic) perimeter edge and sheet away, leaving a completely dry surface, there IS definite protection. Without the film-breaking poly protection the water clings and sticks to the finish evenly, forming a homogeneous film on the surface. There is no hydrophobic, rounded waterfront edges, no repellency. The water film dissipates rather quickly, and dries spot free (continuous, unbroken evaporation surface, which just thins out and finally disappears - just as when you fog the surface with your breath). When beads cover the surface, the drying is much slower, spotty, because the total surface area is a lot bigger than the pooling surface (similar to the lungs), and broken up into tiny little drops/beads. That means that the water can not evaporate from its close-to-ideal energetic state as easily.

Hydrophilic behavior shows no protection. Wetting fluids produce a concave surface in a tube (clingy, flat waterfront edge), while non-wetting one are convex (repellent, rounded edge - ). When a surface/material/coating film is able to withstand to a wetting liquid (water), forms a rounded edge and shows repellent characteristics, there is protection. So, when the water film breaks up, the water wants to revert back to its ideal, most stable energetic state (sphere) - therefore it will build a rounded perimeter edge. The cause is a protective barrier which doesn't let water to cling to the surface.
 
TigerMike said:
I'm not drinking anyone's "Koolaid," but thanks for that reference. I don't even use Zaino, and haven't in several years. My personal beliefs on wax protection just happen to agree 100% with Sal's statements. If you like to take chances with whether or not your paint is actually protected and when, that's your business.
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I'm not taking any chances with my car's finish and its protection. Meguiar's is a large company with extensive R&D. Vehicle paint manufacturers send them painted panels to check for compatibility with their products and if the paint is suitable for real world use. While I used to believe that beading was the preferential characteristic in paint waxes/sealants, I've shed that conditioning and realized that sheeting made more "sense."



Again, I don't buy one bit what MP says about their products. Of course he's going to say they are "designed" to sheet. Think.....what else is he going to say??? That they just don't last or offer much durability? Yeah, that'll sell products huh? There comes a point where each of us has to separate the truth from marketing mumbo jumbo. I was a big Meguiar's user years ago, so drinking coolaid has nothing to do with anything. I am able to think and process for myself, not buy into "razzle dazzle" marketing lines, as Sal puts it.
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I am also able to think and process for myself as are all human beings. I don't immediately believe anything someone tells me or posts in a forum. I use the products and from personal experiences form my opinion on a product. Many people in these types of forums just repeat what they've read without trying the products personally. I've used NXT in the past and what I've been told about the product by Mike Phillips is consistent with what I've experienced first hand.



And, that "post" showing the sheeting action, looks like water pooling to me, and I'd be inclined to say that the finish has little to no actual protection. In my experiences, that type of performance is just unacceptable. If it's acceptable to you or anyone else, that's fine. We just have different standards I guess.
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Sure looks like sheeting to me. I find it arrogant when people make statements like, "I guess I have different standards than you" because it implies that you have a higher standard than others simply because their opinion differs from yours. If that makes you feel better about yourself and your choices then be my guest.
 
Bence said:
Joe's photos show clearly sheeting. Even raw material manufacturers talk about this type of behavior (bead/sheet). The goal is to break up the water film (just as WAUD-type products do) - and as long as a product is able to produce an effect which forces the water to form a stable, rounded (hydrophobic) perimeter edge and sheet away, leaving a completely dry surface, there IS definite protection. Without the film-breaking poly protection the water clings and sticks to the finish evenly, forming a homogeneous film on the surface. There is no hydrophobic, rounded waterfront edges, no repellency. The water film dissipates rather quickly, and dries spot free (continuous, unbroken evaporation surface, which just thins out and finally disappears - just as when you fog the surface with your breath). When beads cover the surface, the drying is much slower, spotty, because the total surface area is a lot bigger than the pooling surface (similar to the lungs), and broken up into tiny little drops/beads. That means that the water can not evaporate from its close-to-ideal energetic state as easily.

Hydrophilic behavior shows no protection. Wetting fluids produce a concave surface in a tube (clingy, flat waterfront edge), while non-wetting one are convex (repellent, rounded edge - ). When a surface/material/coating film is able to withstand to a wetting liquid (water), forms a rounded edge and shows repellent characteristics, there is protection. So, when the water film breaks up, the water wants to revert back to its ideal, most stable energetic state (sphere) - therefore it will build a rounded perimeter edge. The cause is a protective barrier which doesn't let water to cling to the surface.
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Great explanation, thanks. A simple observation of how water reacts on a given surface should indicate whether protection is present or not. I can certainly tell when a surface needs an application of wax/sealant without the presence of beads.
 
Perm said:
This photo does not show sheeting...... all cars (wax, sealed or nothing on the paint) will display these properties when blasted with a hose. Water will sheet off.
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The pic of water sheeting is not water sheeting? I'm really confused by that statement.
 
beading vs sheeting is a secondary issue. Some synthetic sealants are dirt traps and some repel and release dirt quite well. IMO that should be the most important aspect of a sealant. From my testing siloxane products will initially bead well and then after a few washings the charactaristics change to water clinging and pooling and then sheeting away. Obviously something on the surface has been removed-oils or siloxane(loss of gloss and slickness) and something remains on the surface(based on visual inspection of a flat painted surface). IMO that indicates a partial breakdown of the protection barrier. Remember most companies are in business to sell product and that happens when people use more product more often.



As an example- I have 2 different products on a hood. The hood has only been washed once or twice in a couple months. Even so, one product has kept its original beading charactaristics and the other side has deteriorated beading. Which product do you think protects better?
 
So I can be clear here . . . when you guys are discussing beading vs. sheeting, you are refering to how a given product reacts on a painted surface when the surface in question is "flodded" with water from a hose, not rain or other nozzles/sparyers . . .
 
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