(Home) Water Heater Question

Oneheadlite

Oneheadlite

New member
Here`s a slightly off topic one where I`d love to get folk`s input.


Cliff`s notes version: Does anyone have recommendations for an intelligent water shutoff system that can cut off water supply to a water heater if a moisture sensor detects a leak?

Long version:

We`re coming due for a new water heater. Our current 35 gal conventional water heater that came with our house clearly has some sediment/issues and doesn`t keep up with demand, so looking to replace before it`s out of catastrophic necessity.

I briefly looked into going tankless, as the biggest thing I hate about standard water heaters is the many gallon reservoir of water damage waiting to happen. Both my wife and I have had water heater failures at previous houses. Ultimately, I don`t think converting to a tankless setup is worth while for out house. Not even just basic price difference, but also factoring in our house is 2 levels above ground with the utilities in the basement. My understanding is sometimes you have to run a recirculation line to the farthest point of use to help cut down on the wait time for hot water to reach that far; this would be an expense that doesn`t seem worth going through. Also not crazy about the additional maintenance required, though I`d love to hear people`s experience on that front.

So really what I`m on the hunt for is a good system to cut off the water line to the water heater in case of emergency. That way if there`s a malfunction it doesn`t flood the basement.

Yes, it`s right next to a drain, but I don`t have a lot of faith that that`s gonna prevent any damage. We just had our water softener malfunction and leak brine water out of the salt tank - turns out the foundation`s not sloped towards the drain enough so I had a small amount of clean up to do. I was planning on talking to the installer about putting the new one in a drained pan to promote water actually going down the drain. Even then I`m not sure it`s gonna be enough in the event of a big let go.

I`m also open to any input on makes/models to get/avoid - I hear too much lately about new stuff only lasting a few years...

PS: Sorry Lonnie - This one`s not 100% detailing related. ;) (I understand trying to keep this forum true to it`s roots, but I genuinely appreciate the knowledge level and general give-a-rip about all aspects of their life, so I wanted to ask here. :D )
 
You need not justify your question/thread to anyone. It’s a good question put before experienced members of this forum with a wealth of knowledge in almost anything.
 
That end portion was totally in jest, hopefully it’s not taken wrong!!!!

Again, what I love about this forum is the caliber of our members. You know that it’s very unlikely they’ll accept “good enough” in any area.
:autopia:
 
Oneheadlite -
I have had many houses and luckily, have never had an entire water heater go ker-blammo and all the water pour out And keep trying to refill itself..
But I have had a few water heaters replaced because some had rust, etc., at the top connection that takes the water in, heats it, and then sends it to the house on demand..
I have only replaced with 50 gallon units, and never had an issue with the new ones..

Years ago, when hot water on demand came out, I always wondered how in the heck could Anything water, that is passing through it quickly - ever - heat it hot enough to ever compete with what a water heater does ???

Finally, without doing much research on it, I just decided it would never really work for my people who all liked hot water a lot and I could just not see how this thing would ever be as good..

Certainly it is much less parts, but then you have to think about what is the heat source - electricity??? Then this would have to make your electric bill go much higher all year long..

All my water heaters have been gas powered, and natural gas is always going to be less expensive than electricity in my experiences..

I just had my water heater replaced in 2019 in the house I live in now, and it is a Bradford White Defender Series, 50 gallon.. It is totally insulated and I cannot feel any heat coming out of it on the sides, and just a little on the top when it is on, heating the water...

Perhaps there are some Instant On Hot Water, etc., Forums out there, or maybe Consumer Reports has tested instant-on hot water systems, Popular Science, etc.. ??

The only other thing I can add is that if things got really bad somehow and there was No water, etc.., for whatever reason, you would have 50 gallons of clean water in that tank, just a turn of the nozzle at the bottom away...

I have only read a little about moisture sensors, and it looks like they are somehow connected at the water source and if they detect moisture outside of the connection, they have a valve that shuts the water off...Hmmm...Need to do more research to fully understand what exactly that means, how many different ways are there to do this, and which one has the best long-term track record...

Good luck with this !!
Dan F
 
I would get a cheap $15 9V water alarm to put the sensor under as close to the tank as you can. From what I`ve seen, a water tank will slowly leak before you have a catastrophic failure. The alarm is loud and annoying, but it was enough that my neighbor heard it from his house while I was on vacation.

I think an integrated, automatic water shutoff would run the same cost as a new water heater.
 
Water heaters should be installed on a pan. They make them in various sizes depending on the size tank and they have a cutout for running pvc pipe to a drain in the event of a leak or your pressure relief valve opening. I believe modern building code requires this now but I could be mistaken.

I just replaced my water heater due to corrosion and a small leak. The pan was just a few extra bucks and plumbing pvc to a drain is easy. No worries now
 
Ha...this sounds like fun.

Tankless: I had a friend who was all amped up about that and put one in his house and loved it, but he was paranoid about a tank-type leak. Myself, I`d be concerned about the delay time and the whole recirc idea just offends my sensibilities.

Leakage: I agree that usually water heaters seep before they catastrophically fail, but I`m sure it happens.

Options: There ARE stainless steel water heaters, Home Depot was selling them under the Westinghouse brand, but they are made by a company in New England...name is escaping me right now. Expensive though.

Automatic Shutoff Valve: I also have an old water heater and was looking at one of those water sensors, I don`t see where any of the Amazon ones have any "contact closure" provisions. A quick Google found one but at the power level it is rated for you might have to use it to control a relay, that could control a solenoid valve that would shut off the water to the water heater. A good HVAC company that does both plumbing and electrical should be able to set that up, as noted by Moonracer, could be pretty expensive. PM me if you want the info on the sensor I found, maybe by that time I will remember the name of the stainless water heater company.

Sediment: You`re supposed to flush your water heater periodically, I think the plumbers want you to do it every year or two (so they charge you for doing it). Last time I had major plumbing work done I had a whole-house filter installed, that made me feel better, but I think a lot of the sediment in a water heater comes from mineral scale. Some water heaters have a replaceable anode rod, if you keep up with that it can really extend the life of the unit.
 
My brother in law put in a tankless and because of the high heat, it has to be serviced one a year to clean it out. My last water heater lasted 18 years, I would just buy a good brand such as Bradford White, from a plumbing store. The products that a company puts in a plumbing store compared to what that same brand puts in a Home Depot or Lowe`s isn`t the same quality.
 
Stokdgs said:
...
Years ago, when hot water on demand came out, I always wondered how in the heck could Anything water, that is passing through it quickly - ever - heat it hot enough to ever compete with what a water heater does ???

Finally, without doing much research on it, I just decided it would never really work for my people who all liked hot water a lot and I could just not see how this thing would ever be as good..

Certainly it is much less parts, but then you have to think about what is the heat source - electricity??? Then this would have to make your electric bill go much higher all year long..
...

The only other thing I can add is that if things got really bad somehow and there was No water, etc.., for whatever reason, you would have 50 gallons of clean water in that tank, just a turn of the nozzle at the bottom away...

I have only read a little about moisture sensors, and it looks like they are somehow connected at the water source and if they detect moisture outside of the connection, they have a valve that shuts the water off...Hmmm...Need to do more research to fully understand what exactly that means, how many different ways are there to do this, and which one has the best long-term track record...

Good luck with this !!
Dan F
Click to expand...

Sorry, I`m gonna reply outside the quotes for speed sake. :)

So for a tankless unit, you size it appropriately to what you expect your greatest usage case to be (IE: 2 people showering, dishwasher running/etc). They make both gas and electric, I`d stick with natural gas like my old water heater was. When in use, you get unlimited water heating. If you run into a situation where you`re outpacing the heater`s output (like if it`s also got to heat up water from winter lowering your ground water temp, or you add another point of use), then it will slow the water flow to maintain temperature. So you don`t end up with a cold shower, just the chance of reduced pressure.

Given what happened in Texas recently, the notion of having a small water stock pile on hand also occurred to me regarding tank vs tankless.

I also started a thread over on AG, a member there recommended a product called "WaterCop" which is one brand of exactly what I was wondering was available - A unit that pairs with a water sensor/s that is able to cut off water supply to the water softener. On further research, they also make them for washing machines, dishwashers, etc.

I`ll be continuing my research, but I`m very strongly considering getting something like this for the water heater, washing machine, dishwasher, and water supply for our fridge. Initial findings show for less than the price of my Home Insurance deductible I`d be able to potentially catch each of the common water leak sources.


Moonracer364 said:
I would get a cheap $15 9V water alarm to put the sensor under as close to the tank as you can. From what I`ve seen, a water tank will slowly leak before you have a catastrophic failure. The alarm is loud and annoying, but it was enough that my neighbor heard it from his house while I was on vacation.

I think an integrated, automatic water shutoff would run the same cost as a new water heater.
Click to expand...

While better than nothing, I`d rather have something that can pro-actively reduce the chance of damage. If anything lets go in the morning after you leave for work, you`d still come home to an alarm and squishy floors (both myself, my wife and her folks have all had water failures of some sort, and all were found after getting home from work/vacation).

ShaneB said:
Water heaters should be installed on a pan. They make them in various sizes depending on the size tank and they have a cutout for running pvc pipe to a drain in the event of a leak or your pressure relief valve opening. I believe modern building code requires this now but I could be mistaken.

I just replaced my water heater due to corrosion and a small leak. The pan was just a few extra bucks and plumbing pvc to a drain is easy. No worries now
Click to expand...

Yeah, definitely going to be going the drained pan route. Boy you`d hope it would be part of code by now! My wifes water heater was on the second floor of her town house, and while it was in a pan, I don`t think it actually drained to anywhere. Well, except through to the first floor ceiling as it turned out...

Setec Astronomy said:
Ha...this sounds like fun.

Tankless: I had a friend who was all amped up about that and put one in his house and loved it, but he was paranoid about a tank-type leak. Myself, I`d be concerned about the delay time and the whole recirc idea just offends my sensibilities.

Leakage: I agree that usually water heaters seep before they catastrophically fail, but I`m sure it happens.

Options: There ARE stainless steel water heaters, Home Depot was selling them under the Westinghouse brand, but they are made by a company in New England...name is escaping me right now. Expensive though.

Automatic Shutoff Valve: I also have an old water heater and was looking at one of those water sensors, I don`t see where any of the Amazon ones have any "contact closure" provisions. A quick Google found one but at the power level it is rated for you might have to use it to control a relay, that could control a solenoid valve that would shut off the water to the water heater. A good HVAC company that does both plumbing and electrical should be able to set that up, as noted by Moonracer, could be pretty expensive. PM me if you want the info on the sensor I found, maybe by that time I will remember the name of the stainless water heater company.

Sediment: You`re supposed to flush your water heater periodically, I think the plumbers want you to do it every year or two (so they charge you for doing it). Last time I had major plumbing work done I had a whole-house filter installed, that made me feel better, but I think a lot of the sediment in a water heater comes from mineral scale. Some water heaters have a replaceable anode rod, if you keep up with that it can really extend the life of the unit.
Click to expand...

I agree the recirc line seems silly with the tankless. But I suppose in theory you`re only cycling a handful of gallons of water at a reduced temperature from full output? The delay is a big reason I`m reluctant to look further into it. There`s already a noticeable delay upstairs getting hot water from our conventional heater. Ironically, enough that I`ve considered a "Point of Use" heater (a baby tankless heater you`d install in the bathroom).

When briefly looking, I also saw the stainless heaters. With all the talk of sediment, I`m left wondering if you then run into problems with everything but the tank after a long enough time?

Maintenance will absolutely be ramped up with whatever the new heater is. Sadly, growing up I was just never aware of what should be done to promote a healthy life from your water heater. Can`t remember if I mentioned, but we just had a malfunction with our water softener which led to a small water leak. Every couple years now I`ll be draining/cleaning out the brine tank after finding out what that looked like after 7 years (of our ownership of the house; I`m sure it was never touched prior...).

Planning to drain the tank at least annually (I`ll check in at the 6 month mark to see how it`s looking to see if I need to do it more often), check the pressure relief valve, and inspect/replace the anode like you mention. That`s another one I found during this research that I never knew was a thing.

ernman said:
My brother in law put in a tankless and because of the high heat, it has to be serviced one a year to clean it out. My last water heater lasted 18 years, I would just buy a good brand such as Bradford White, from a plumbing store. The products that a company puts in a plumbing store compared to what that same brand puts in a Home Depot or Lowe`s isn`t the same quality.
Click to expand...

Definitely will be having a plumber install the new unit - I`m comfortable doing a lot of things, but like I told my wife - If it can burn the house down (adding electrical), blow it up (natural gas), or flood it (plumbing), I`m just gonna leave that to a professional.

Our current unit is a Richmond that I`m guessing was a big box store unit. I think it`s like 8 years old (of course I forget now). Shows signs of mild corrosion and seems like it`s probably got sediment issues (ok, that part`s not it`s fault).

Probably going to contact our natural gas company for the replacement as I don`t have any local recommendations for a plumber.


Thanks all for the input!!
 
I like the concept of a tankless water heater but every time I`m at my parent`s house, I`m always washing my hands with cold water even at the kitchen sink, which is fairly close to the natural gas tankless heater. I think the best way a tankless water heater works is with a homerun system manifold, which is most often associated with pex. Meaning there is a manifold near the hot water heater and then each outlet (sink/shower) has a direct line back to the manifold. Then again, that would greatly improve a tanked water heater as well. Either way, with my limited experience I think I`ll be keeping a traditional water heater though a higher end one with greater insulation.

And I also agree that a Watercop is inexpensive insurance against the hassle of a busted water heater. My water heater broke and dumped water all over our basement, luckily we haven`t finished it out yet.
 
Interesting thread, if only because I`ve replace two of `em recently. That WaterCop could`ve saved me a bit of work...and drama.

FWIW, I was told that tankless ones have improved *dramatically* just recently, some now even come with what`s basically a lifetime warranty! But they can`t be mounted just anywhere (simply not feasible for me, neither in the house nor shop :( ).
 
Interesting topic.

If our water heater ever gives up we`re looking at going tankless too, but I`m wondering about the re-circ line. Didn`t know that was a thing. We have gas heat/water and would keep that for sure.

When we lived in Europe in the early 2000`s, tankless water heaters were pretty common because many of the really old homes didn`t have a good place to put a water heater. From our experience even back then, the delay was no worse than our tank water heaters and once hot, it was endless hot water. If both kids come home or we have guests, it isn`t hard for our house to run out of hot water today with our tank heater today.
 
OHL. How are you. Hope things are well.

If you haven`t looked at a hybrid, heat pump, that is something to look at depending on RO on the next replacement

I`ve never heard or seen a heater go kaboom....a slow drip is what occurs.
Change the anode rod every few year, and inspect how much it`s been wearing down is a good PM schedule

I don`t read that much into water shutoffs. I do have water sensors in the pans, in the sump pit proximity and I will get a alert if a water sensor goes off. But auto shut off is similar-akin, to are you going to close the shut off valve to your laundry washer (due to a SS braided hose that has a rubber hose inside, or the shutoff to the fridge, or just flipping the breaker every time you leave the house) sorta mentality
 
Oddly enough, my water heater just started seeping last night (or at least last night is when it got high enough in the base to come out somewhere). These kinds of things always happen to me on weekends or holidays, that guy Murphy.

mobiledynamics said:
a SS braided hose that has a rubber hose inside
Click to expand...

I`ve thought about this many times, how everyone has gone from solid copper tubing to flex lines for sink/toilet connectors, and what`s going to happen to them in 20+ years, vs. a small diameter copper tubing that can easily go 50-60 years. Not to mention the rubber gaskets in the ends of the flex lines take a set and you have to tighten them...you just can`t beat metal-to-metal for some things.
 
dgage said:
I like the concept of a tankless water heater but every time I`m at my parent`s house, I`m always washing my hands with cold water even at the kitchen sink, which is fairly close to the natural gas tankless heater. I think the best way a tankless water heater works is with a homerun system manifold, which is most often associated with pex. Meaning there is a manifold near the hot water heater and then each outlet (sink/shower) has a direct line back to the manifold. Then again, that would greatly improve a tanked water heater as well. Either way, with my limited experience I think I`ll be keeping a traditional water heater though a higher end one with greater insulation.

And I also agree that a Watercop is inexpensive insurance against the hassle of a busted water heater. My water heater broke and dumped water all over our basement, luckily we haven`t finished it out yet.
Click to expand...

I suppose turning up the temperature on the tankless water heater will help it have hot water longer as well, no ??..
DanF
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Oddly enough, my water heater just started seeping last night (or at least last night is when it got high enough in the base to come out somewhere). These kinds of things always happen to me on weekends or holidays, that guy Murphy.



I`ve thought about this many times, how everyone has gone from solid copper tubing to flex lines for sink/toilet connectors, and what`s going to happen to them in 20+ years, vs. a small diameter copper tubing that can easily go 50-60 years. Not to mention the rubber gaskets in the ends of the flex lines take a set and you have to tighten them...you just can`t beat metal-to-metal for some things.
Click to expand...

Setec Astronomy -- Sorry to hear about your plumbing issue... And on a weekend.. :(

I have read about a lot of pex lines with fittings that eventually cut the pex line because the type of plastic they were/are using is of course always wanting to return to its -original- shape. So, it keeps pushing against the fitting and over years, apparently, the plastic will cut and start leaking..

Evidence of this is in my current neighborhood.. The oldest houses were built in 2004 and ALL of them, thousands, were all Pex lines..

Many of my neighbors have had failures; the worst were when they were gone for a few weeks, and for example the bathroom lines started leaking in the ceiling, and eventually, soaked the drywall enough that it fell through to the floor and the rest of water just kept leaking until they came home 4 weeks later..

Some of my neighbors had small leaks showing at for example, the exhaust fan in the laundry room, and it has always been a Pex line where it is connected to a fitting..

I have been lucky so far.. And hope I will be able to deal with it if/when it happens to me... I think if I had known beforehand these houses were all Pex, I would have not bought one here...

Seen a few houses, 3 brand new, all with copper plumbing. Some were older with copper... None of them, none of my neighbors around me, no one ever had copper soldered pipes break..

Yes, everyone likes Pex because it is so much faster to install, it is cheaper I imagine, and perhaps it is even available in larger diameter, etc...
If they ever solve or have already solved the issue with plastics that want to retain their original shape no matter what, then perhaps it might be a good alternative...

I just don`t have the decades of time left on the clock to have to deal with another mess like we all did when we were young and fearless in our 20`s, remember??? :) :) :)

Good luck with your research and project !
Dan F
 
Yeah, PEX is another one...that as you said, Stokdgs, is all about making it easier to install, and I`ve wondered what is going to go on with that stuff decades later. Not that there isn`t something to be said about having water lines that aren`t subject to corrosion, but I have had several pinhole leaks in copper piping in my basement. I had hoped it was just a few lengths of crappy tubing but the last one was in an elbow (maybe subject to some water hammer). I suppose some day one of them is going to occur in a wall or ceiling. Of course my copper piping was put in when Eisenhower was President. BTW, the other thing they say about PEX is it has better thermal performance on the hot water because of the much lower thermal conductivity vs. copper.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Oddly enough, my water heater just started seeping last night (or at least last night is when it got high enough in the base to come out somewhere). These kinds of things always happen to me on weekends or holidays, that guy Murphy..
Click to expand...
Aw gee, sorry to hear that :( Hope you get by OK until it`s replaced (and that you have a catch-pan under it).

We`re still dealing with Water issues...currently having the Green Sand filter units redone and one of the softeners rebuilt..man, we haven`t been without soft water for this long since, well...ever. At least it`s not the Garage one so I don`t have to deal with calcium-type waterspots on the vehicles, but OTOH, hard water is murder on my skin, and I could`ve just skipped carwashes for a while.
 
I hate doing these things on an "emergency" basis, I like to plan it out and replace before failure so I don`t get forced into doing something I don`t want to do for expedience, but I missed on this one, maybe because of the pandemic, but probably I would have missed anyway.
 
Hey Gang

Setec - Sorry to hear about your water heater going. I hear ya on wanting to do things proactively vs re-actively. Really itching to get mine changed out because I feel like it`s on borrowed time.

Update on our situation - Ultimately elected to stick with a standard tank style water heater. If I was building a new house I`d consider going tankless, but just don`t think it`s necessary for our house. After looking at different options, I did go with the Water Cop brand shut off valve. Couldn`t find any negative reviews, and had a positive experience when I called them directly. 3 year warranty on the whole valve.

Water heater wise, I decided to just go through our natural gas company. I`m sure I`m paying a premium to go through them, but am ok with that. They offer a 12 year warranty on the whole thing (parts/labor/etc), which seemed pretty good as far as water heaters go.

The "fun" part come in when the subcontractor came out to install the water heater. He confirmed my suspicion that the previous water heater was probably installed by the previous homeowner (natural gas line not secured to tank, pressure relief drain too far from the ground - both don`t meet code). He wasn`t happy with something about the exhaust ducting, which started him investigating. Come to find out, the water heater exhaust pipe is too close to the house`s air exchange inlet, thus violating code so he can`t install the new heater. He then proceeded to offer various ways to continue forward, but I put the brakes on as I wanted to educate myself on the situation so I could feel comfortable with whatever ends up taking place.

I continue to do my own digging, and discover that technically the air exchange inlet placement doesn`t meet code period - it`s too close to both the air exchange outlet and the dryer outlet. On further investigation, the exhaust plumbing for the water heater has date code stamping on it from when the house was built (Not when the previous owner replaced the water heater like the plumber thought), so add another not-built-to-code strike.

I`ve been in contact with the city inspector, and was slightly confused when I asked him was the standard was for spacing - He replied that building code states that it has to be 10 feet apart, but sometimes the air-exchange manual says that they can be 6 feet apart (mine aren`t that far apart either). If there`s a building code, wouldn`t it need to be done to, well - building code?

With what I know now, I`ll be contacting the city one more time to get the official what`s-what for all the elements involved so I can be sure the whole thing is done safely and to code. I`m a bit extra sensitive about meeting code after my experience selling the first house I bought - Had the home privately inspected, assumed everything the city required for a home sale had been done before I bought it. Lived in the house for 7 years. Go to put it on the market after not making any changes to the house while I`ve lived in it, but have to have the city inspect it first. No big deal, right? Wrong. I had to do about $1500 worth of work to pass code before the city would let me put it on the market. :wall


mobiledynamics said:
OHL. How are you. Hope things are well.

If you haven`t looked at a hybrid, heat pump, that is something to look at depending on RO on the next replacement

I`ve never heard or seen a heater go kaboom....a slow drip is what occurs.
Change the anode rod every few year, and inspect how much it`s been wearing down is a good PM schedule

I don`t read that much into water shutoffs. I do have water sensors in the pans, in the sump pit proximity and I will get a alert if a water sensor goes off. But auto shut off is similar-akin, to are you going to close the shut off valve to your laundry washer (due to a SS braided hose that has a rubber hose inside, or the shutoff to the fridge, or just flipping the breaker every time you leave the house) sorta mentality
Click to expand...

Glad you haven`t had anyone with a catastrophic failure. As mentioned above, I`ll definitely be doing routine maintenance on the new water heater, including inspecting the anode rod. Ironically, I`m pro auto-shutoff and anti water alarm. I can`t imagine a situation where I`d rather have a speaker make a racket which I have to respond to (hopefully home when it happens) versus the water supply cutting off in response to a leak (an alarm does sound when that happens, but action has been taken as well).

Funny you mention shutting the water valves off for the washing machine - my wife was in that habit with her last house, and her parents as well - they had a not-currently-in-use washing machine malfunction cause damage at the house she grew up in. We`d do it at our current house if the shut off valves weren`t in a terrible location.


Accumulator - On top of the Water cop at the main valve in the basement, I`m looking at adding smart shut-offs at the dishwasher, washing machine, and refrigerator water dispenser to prevent just that kind of headache you`re referring to. I get that`s what homeowner`s insurance is for, but now you`ve got to bring people into your home and hope they do the caliber work you want. Apparently you can also get a discount on your insurance when you have them installed.
 
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