Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Anybody got any comparison to Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50's? A local high-end tire shop here says the Vredesteins out-handle and out-wear the Blizzaks; anybody know if they beat the Blizzak on ice, too?
Hey Europeans, tell me about Vredestein Snowtrac 2's
- Thread starter Setec Astronomy
- Start date
Accumulator
Well-known member
I haven't run Vredesteins since the early '80s so this model will almost certainly be completely different from the ones I had. Those were OK conventional snows, nothing great on ice.
The thing to look for regarding ice traction/braking/steering is the special compound that usually only goes down so far. That's what makes the Blizzaks and similar tires so great on ice. That's what wears sorta fast but it's just the nature of the thing.
FWIW, I just dial it back a bit when driving on winter tires and put up with the compromised handling/braking on cleared pavement. When it really counts (IMO) is when you hit that unseen black ice and you just say "huh" and smile instead of saying "oh $#!^" and calling the tow truck. Blizzaks for me, even on the Quattros. When they wear I buy new ones. Cheaper than my insurance deductible.
White95Max just got some Dunlops he thinks he'll like better than the Blizzaks though, you might look at them too.
The thing to look for regarding ice traction/braking/steering is the special compound that usually only goes down so far. That's what makes the Blizzaks and similar tires so great on ice. That's what wears sorta fast but it's just the nature of the thing.
FWIW, I just dial it back a bit when driving on winter tires and put up with the compromised handling/braking on cleared pavement. When it really counts (IMO) is when you hit that unseen black ice and you just say "huh" and smile instead of saying "oh $#!^" and calling the tow truck. Blizzaks for me, even on the Quattros. When they wear I buy new ones. Cheaper than my insurance deductible.
White95Max just got some Dunlops he thinks he'll like better than the Blizzaks though, you might look at them too.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
<sigh>This is really a continuation of this thread (for me). The tires are for my friend. The dealer, which you may remember, Accumulator, is EuroTire here in NJ, which was one of the early big mailorder tire places from the late 70's, back when the European cars were coming with P-metric tires, and the American cars still came with letter-size (hard to find tires at that time for your M-B, for example). There were also a lot of gray-market exotics and more run of the mill exotics (Porsches, etc.) that had low profile tires and alloy wheels at a time when your standard tire store wasn't equipped to service them. So in the early 80's, EuroTire opened a service center, catering to those customers. It really was a cool place and you could see Ferraris, etc. getting tires. Eventually, their mail order (then internet) business was run over (ha ha) by Tire Rack, but they still have the service center (although their clientele is not so exotic as 20 years ago).
They used to sell the Blizzaks, so I asked him for a quote to swap Blizzaks onto my friend's factory steelies, and he wouldn't even quote me on them, insisting the Vredestein's were the way to go.
As far as the Dunlops; even Tire Rack says they are not as good on snow and ice as the Blizzaks. My friend is mostly concerned about sliding on snow and ice, so the Blizzak would be indicated, but even though she doesn't drive like Maxy (White95Max), she is a bit of a leadfoot, so I'm a little concerned about the mushy handling and quick wear of the dual-compound tires, since we typically have a lot of dry periods here in NJ during the winter. Maxy likes to point out the Tire Rack survey which rates that Dunlop Winter Sport M3 as the best winter tire; I'm skeptical of a survey which couples not only non-trained drivers, but makes no differentiation between expectations and results. If you notice, the new Goodyear Assurance TripleTred (passenger all-season) rates very highly compared to the Dunlop (high performance winter)...is that because the Goodyear buyers had different expectations than the Dunlop buyers? If you expect the tire to be crap and it isn't, do you rate it a 10 because you are so pleasantly surprised? Or because you don't know any better? I just don't (completely) trust the scientific basis of their surveys.
They used to sell the Blizzaks, so I asked him for a quote to swap Blizzaks onto my friend's factory steelies, and he wouldn't even quote me on them, insisting the Vredestein's were the way to go.
As far as the Dunlops; even Tire Rack says they are not as good on snow and ice as the Blizzaks. My friend is mostly concerned about sliding on snow and ice, so the Blizzak would be indicated, but even though she doesn't drive like Maxy (White95Max), she is a bit of a leadfoot, so I'm a little concerned about the mushy handling and quick wear of the dual-compound tires, since we typically have a lot of dry periods here in NJ during the winter. Maxy likes to point out the Tire Rack survey which rates that Dunlop Winter Sport M3 as the best winter tire; I'm skeptical of a survey which couples not only non-trained drivers, but makes no differentiation between expectations and results. If you notice, the new Goodyear Assurance TripleTred (passenger all-season) rates very highly compared to the Dunlop (high performance winter)...is that because the Goodyear buyers had different expectations than the Dunlop buyers? If you expect the tire to be crap and it isn't, do you rate it a 10 because you are so pleasantly surprised? Or because you don't know any better? I just don't (completely) trust the scientific basis of their surveys.
White95Max
New member
That's a good point Setec. You also may find that people have tires with 10% tread left and complain about snow traction. That makes them idiots.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
I found this German tire test where the SnowTrac 2 was one of the three recommended tires, but I have two problems, 1) The Google translation leaves something to be desired as far as the reasoning behind the recommendation, and 2) The other tires in the test are not available here or are not comparable to the Blizzak WS-50 or the Michelin X-Ice, for instance. Any German speakers care to refine the Google translation a bit?
Vredestein doesn't really harp on the ice capability in their literature, but even their English literature seems to be a bit of a stilted translation. I notice that the SnoTrac 2 has a T speed rating, and they even now have an H version, versus the Q rating of the Blizzak and Ice-X. Since Vredestein USA is right here in NJ, I called them up (spoke to the President!) and asked a few questions, like if the SnowTrac 2 is comparable/marketed against the Blizzak and got more of a "sure" which surpised me because I expected "well, the Blizzak is a good tire, but the SnowTrac 2 is even better" or "it's at least the equal of the Blizzak, and has a better speed rating". I asked about the speed rating, and was told that there really was no difference in the snow/ice capability, only that the H-rated tire would cost a few bucks more. When I referred to the SnowTrac 2 as a "dual compound" tire (like the Blizzak) , the Vredestein rep told me it wasn't, even though their brochure says "Unique tread compound: Silica Nova 7*C for contact with the road, Hard 'base' compound for the foundation layer".
I got the new Car & Driver this week and they had a tire test....on performance tires...just in time for winter!
So now I'm more puzzled than ever...one could conclude from the above (marketing and speed ratings) that the SnowTrac 2 is not really a comparable tire to the Blizzak. If it's not, I'm just back to my original question of whether to recommend the Blizzak ice/handling compromise...or a different compromise. My target date for getting my friend outfitted is Thanksgiving/Dec. 1, so I have another week or two to agonize over this. Oh...if I wind up with the Blizzaks, it may be the new REVO 1, which gets slightly higher ratings overall at TireRack vs. the WS-50.
Murat: Thanks for the Nokian recommendation, my initial goal was to stay with this local dealer that I have a relationship with; I thought I could get the Blizzaks through him. If I wind up having to do an internet thing, I'll take another look at the Nokians.
Maxy: You have your Dunlops on yet?
Vredestein doesn't really harp on the ice capability in their literature, but even their English literature seems to be a bit of a stilted translation. I notice that the SnoTrac 2 has a T speed rating, and they even now have an H version, versus the Q rating of the Blizzak and Ice-X. Since Vredestein USA is right here in NJ, I called them up (spoke to the President!) and asked a few questions, like if the SnowTrac 2 is comparable/marketed against the Blizzak and got more of a "sure" which surpised me because I expected "well, the Blizzak is a good tire, but the SnowTrac 2 is even better" or "it's at least the equal of the Blizzak, and has a better speed rating". I asked about the speed rating, and was told that there really was no difference in the snow/ice capability, only that the H-rated tire would cost a few bucks more. When I referred to the SnowTrac 2 as a "dual compound" tire (like the Blizzak) , the Vredestein rep told me it wasn't, even though their brochure says "Unique tread compound: Silica Nova 7*C for contact with the road, Hard 'base' compound for the foundation layer".
I got the new Car & Driver this week and they had a tire test....on performance tires...just in time for winter!
So now I'm more puzzled than ever...one could conclude from the above (marketing and speed ratings) that the SnowTrac 2 is not really a comparable tire to the Blizzak. If it's not, I'm just back to my original question of whether to recommend the Blizzak ice/handling compromise...or a different compromise. My target date for getting my friend outfitted is Thanksgiving/Dec. 1, so I have another week or two to agonize over this. Oh...if I wind up with the Blizzaks, it may be the new REVO 1, which gets slightly higher ratings overall at TireRack vs. the WS-50.
Murat: Thanks for the Nokian recommendation, my initial goal was to stay with this local dealer that I have a relationship with; I thought I could get the Blizzaks through him. If I wind up having to do an internet thing, I'll take another look at the Nokians.
Maxy: You have your Dunlops on yet?
White95Max
New member
Setec Astronomy said:
Hey I don't drive aggressively anymore. I used to, when I had 200HP to work with. Now I've got a whole lot less than that, so there's not all that much fun in driving the car like an *** like I did with the Maxima.
I just have some fun on twisty roads once in a while :nervous: Part of the reason the M3s are rated so highly is because people love them on dry pavement as well. Some people ride on them all year, even though they're in the 'performance winter' category.
And no I don't have my M3s on yet. It's supposed to be in the low 60s today! In a way, I'm anxious to put them on. In another way, I'm quite content to see my car looking its best (with the alloys).
You might consider this one : http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Winter+240+Sottozero
Pirelli Sottozero, I saw this tyre at work last year at the Nurburgring, IN the snow (imagine driving 20.8 km flat out on a race track coverd in snow !!!) by a test driver on a BMW 540 i.
That guy went faster on the snow then the average driver on that same dry track !
It's not to promote fast driving, or harakiri speeds, but it shows how capable that tyre is.
Anything you want to be good at your car, it has to be the tyres, especially in the winter...
Pirelli Sottozero, I saw this tyre at work last year at the Nurburgring, IN the snow (imagine driving 20.8 km flat out on a race track coverd in snow !!!) by a test driver on a BMW 540 i.
That guy went faster on the snow then the average driver on that same dry track !
It's not to promote fast driving, or harakiri speeds, but it shows how capable that tyre is.
Anything you want to be good at your car, it has to be the tyres, especially in the winter...
White95Max
New member
The capabilities of the driver and the tires are the two most important aspects of your car for safe winter driving.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
LOL...thanks Wally, but my friend currently has 15" wheels on her car, those Pirelli's only come in 18 and 19 inch diameters...plus, she doesn't drive like she's on the 'ring.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
So, I found this synopsis of a Swedish newspaper's winter tire test, which blasts the Blizzak WS-50 in favor of the Michelin X-Ice and Nokian Hakka RSi (at least for easily available tires in the US). Looking at the tires in the German test I noted earlier in the thread, the Vredestein SnowTrac 2 seems to be grouped with more performance-oriented tires rather than studless snows (although I can't tell if the Vredestein was tested in the Swedish test, unless someone can translate--links here ) Again, to confuse things more, the newer Blizzak REVO 1 seems to be rated slightly higher (at the Tire Rack) than the WS-50, so it's possible it would have fared better in the Swedish test than the WS-50.
I'd be curious to know what your friend decides on, and how they handle the NJ winter. One of the first RSXs I looked at had a new set of Vredestein performance tires on them, they had a really cool tread design, but I was unable to find any info on them. Everything I found was in a foreign language. :nervous:
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Oops...it looks like that Swedish newpaper may have been reporting on Norwegian Motor Magazine's test here , but there apparently is also a newer (2005) test as well.
tom p.
Active member
Setec, I am getting some decent reports on the Goodyear UltraGrip Ice. I think that's the tire I am going to try this season. I've gone thru Vredestein (Euro Tire 
), Michelins, Dunlops, Blizzaks, etc. I've had decent success with them all. Ice and hard packed snow our my primary concern. We rarely contend with deep snow.
I was going to try the Hakkas but they were getting $$$$.
), Michelins, Dunlops, Blizzaks, etc. I've had decent success with them all. Ice and hard packed snow our my primary concern. We rarely contend with deep snow.I was going to try the Hakkas but they were getting $$$$.
I have the Dunlop M3's on my A4 and for the first time since moving to this Winter wonderland I can laugh at the snow we get up here.
But the M3's are Winter Performance tires which give up a little snow and ice traction to gain some on dry pavement. The ride with them on a car with a sport tuned suspension is not as bad on dry pavement as well.
I looked at the Nokian Hakka's before getting the M3's. Thoose tires are snow and ice tires for real. I beleive they used them to drive on ice in Norway (something like that I saw on the website).
Personally for me I think when looking at a Winter Tire you have to look at what type of Winter you'll be driving in. What are the typical road conditions you'll be driving on and buy tires for that. If your in one of those places where you won't see a clear patch of ground till the thaw, then you need something different than someone in a area/climate where snow is sporadic and the roads (at least the main one's) are plowed frequently.
I drove through some pretty heavy/wet stuff last winter and alot of Lake Effect with those M3's and needed minimal assitance from the on-board electronics (traction control and the like) accept when I was gunning it through turns or just out having some fun and generally driving in a manner totally unsafe for wintery conditions.
Lasty true Snow/Ice tires wear quickly (esp when they see alot of dry pavement), I had mine on from November to late April and looking at the treads they look barely used
But the M3's are Winter Performance tires which give up a little snow and ice traction to gain some on dry pavement. The ride with them on a car with a sport tuned suspension is not as bad on dry pavement as well.
I looked at the Nokian Hakka's before getting the M3's. Thoose tires are snow and ice tires for real. I beleive they used them to drive on ice in Norway (something like that I saw on the website).
Personally for me I think when looking at a Winter Tire you have to look at what type of Winter you'll be driving in. What are the typical road conditions you'll be driving on and buy tires for that. If your in one of those places where you won't see a clear patch of ground till the thaw, then you need something different than someone in a area/climate where snow is sporadic and the roads (at least the main one's) are plowed frequently.
I drove through some pretty heavy/wet stuff last winter and alot of Lake Effect with those M3's and needed minimal assitance from the on-board electronics (traction control and the like) accept when I was gunning it through turns or just out having some fun and generally driving in a manner totally unsafe for wintery conditions.
Lasty true Snow/Ice tires wear quickly (esp when they see alot of dry pavement), I had mine on from November to late April and looking at the treads they look barely used
harry444
New member
Got a set of Dunlop M3 run flat snow tires they are the best I ever had they are Quiet and handle like a summer tire they are H rated so can get some speed on them check em out ...
Setec, At the risk of further complicating your decision there is another factor, which may or may not apply to your friend's car, that you should know about: When I went to buy my winter tires, from The Tire Rack, I had decided on the Blizzaks--a no-brainer I thought. But I was also buying summer tires and new wheels, so I called Luke at TTR, and he told me absolutely NOT to get the Blizzaks for my car.
As it turns out, my car (Mercedes S-500), like many cars today, is equipped w/ an Electronic Stability Program (ESP), which can bring the car to a stop when Blizzak tires start to spin on slick roads. The system apparently "thinks" the car is out of control. He said my car would "hate" Blizzaks, and recommended I get the less expensive, but more effective on my car, Micheline X-Ice--which I did. I have them mounted on my OEM 16" wheels and have not put them on my car yet, so cannot report on preformance.
This may not apply to your friend's car, but I'll bet a lot of people reading these threads will find it useful to know. This is something I have not seen mentioned in any of these posts to date.
Good luck and let us know what you, and she, decide.
As it turns out, my car (Mercedes S-500), like many cars today, is equipped w/ an Electronic Stability Program (ESP), which can bring the car to a stop when Blizzak tires start to spin on slick roads. The system apparently "thinks" the car is out of control. He said my car would "hate" Blizzaks, and recommended I get the less expensive, but more effective on my car, Micheline X-Ice--which I did. I have them mounted on my OEM 16" wheels and have not put them on my car yet, so cannot report on preformance.
This may not apply to your friend's car, but I'll bet a lot of people reading these threads will find it useful to know. This is something I have not seen mentioned in any of these posts to date.
Good luck and let us know what you, and she, decide.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Well, we ordered a set of Nokian Hakkapeliita RSi's from a local chain (STS). I thought she would be better off starting with a studless snow and ice tire, and if it's too mushy, etc., she'll know that for the next time, and consider a more performance oriented tire. It came down to the Blizzaks, Michelin X-Ice, or the Hakka RSi...one of the deciding factors for me was that the Hakka has an R speed rating vs. Q for the others. My friend liked the name...so Nokians it was. Should have them installed on her factory steelies early next week and I'll report back on what she says. And yes, the Hakka's were much more expensive than the Blizzaks or X-Ice.
The other cool news was that we found a great ebay deal on the factory aluminum wheels for her car (1" bigger than the steelies), so now we get to go through this tire picking excercise again in the spring for summer or all-season tires!
The other cool news was that we found a great ebay deal on the factory aluminum wheels for her car (1" bigger than the steelies), so now we get to go through this tire picking excercise again in the spring for summer or all-season tires!
4830Deuce
Burn Then Buff!
just get some studded snow tires and call it good... :LOLOL ...I really have no contribution to this thread sorry...
-Justin
-Justin
White95Max
New member
Setec Astronomy said:
Bah! No Dunlop M3s? Sheesh...
I'm sure she'll love any snow tire though, they are in a whole 'nother category compared to all-seasons.
Setec Astronomy said:
SUMMER TIRES! You've got a set of snow tires, so why get the compromising all-seasons again? Summer tires are superior to all-seasons almost to the extent that snow tires are.
Make sure to clean up those wheels and seal them when you get them.