Help me prove a point...
- Thread starter lyonsroar
- Start date
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Bill, back in the early 90's, Ford, BASF, 3M and Ingersall Rand, along with myself. did a very involved study(lots of high dollar equipement, scanning electron microscopes, etc.) regarding how high heat applied to modern 1K and 2K clears negatively affected the clear used.
Note, this is not about how hot the total paint film, all over a vehicle gets, but selected small repair areas.
The findings were that if while doing buffing or any other processes that increased the heat of the clear above 105F to 145F in a small area, it broke down the resin system that holds it all together.
The negative result in most cases was that over a short period of time, crazing of the clear would be seen and later the clear in that portion would fail completely.
#Another part of the testing was what was the results of wiping a modern 1K or 2K clear with lacquer thinner to remove wax, tar etc, and the results indicated the same long term damage as the high heat study.
AI used to have a portion of the paper written by Ford and the rest on our website, but as with many tech articles it is no longer there.
Grumpy
Note, this is not about how hot the total paint film, all over a vehicle gets, but selected small repair areas.
The findings were that if while doing buffing or any other processes that increased the heat of the clear above 105F to 145F in a small area, it broke down the resin system that holds it all together.
The negative result in most cases was that over a short period of time, crazing of the clear would be seen and later the clear in that portion would fail completely.
#Another part of the testing was what was the results of wiping a modern 1K or 2K clear with lacquer thinner to remove wax, tar etc, and the results indicated the same long term damage as the high heat study.
AI used to have a portion of the paper written by Ford and the rest on our website, but as with many tech articles it is no longer there.
Grumpy
Bill D said:I'd tell him he's obviously passionateabout his "technique" and encourage him to join this forum. Too bad you probably won't see him sink in his chair once he starts reading what's on here. :chuckle:
Apollo_Auto
New member
I had a guy here in Hungary boasting about how he "lifted the clear when it was so hot and then laid it back down perfectly"... and then monkeys flew out of my a$$ 
Ron Ketcham
Active member
LOL! That's a real visual!
Accumulator
Well-known member
Ron Ketcham said:
I'll probably qoute you on that some time as it seems a lot of people advocate wiping (oe finishes) with lacquer thinner, something I've never been comfortable doing.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
If one is going to refinish, sand, etc, then it does not matter, however using it to remove sap, tar, etc is not recommended.
MEK is some strong stuff, as is acetone, xylene, etc.
Just gets the uniformed in trouble eventually.
MEK is some strong stuff, as is acetone, xylene, etc.
Just gets the uniformed in trouble eventually.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Ron Ketcham said:
But usually not until they've disseminated their [crappy] advice
Bill D
Hooked For Life
Ron Ketcham said:
Yeah, I do miss those tech articles. They were helpful and provided some factual education.
I recall also how a tip to detailers who found themselves creating heat with their polishers to use an IR therometer on the paint , so they wouldn't get to that danger zone of 105-145F.
However, that was before the advent of some of the newer polishing/pad systems introduced over the last 3-4 years or so. With those and with good technique, I don't know if the danger of overheating is the same as it was. I know I still have to be careful.
imported_animes2k
New member
105-145F seems like a pretty low temp.
I'd think that's essentially the temp of anything darker than white paint in the full sun for a few minutes.
I'd think that's essentially the temp of anything darker than white paint in the full sun for a few minutes.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Very true. Back in the late 90's we were doing the set-up's for all the Drivers Mart super used car stores detailing (now part of AutoNation) and was in Tucson during July.
Hughes at Ford Body and Paint Tech Center asked us to do some field research on vehicle's skin temps versus their lab testing.
The temps were staggering!
Dark Green metalic actually showed a higher skin temp than black. According to my contacts at PPG and DuPont that is due to the pigment and mica particles, retaining heat.
Some colors were showing as high as 260F.
The problem is that while the top surfaces of a vehicle may obtain such temps, they are "even" on the surfaces and the paint system is designed to expand and contact evenly over the substrate.
Put too high of heat in one area and you may observe what happens with certain vehicles where the clear on the hood only fails.
IE, Chrysler LeBaron turbo's, etc.
The damage that buffing and attaining excessive temps is that it is "localized", resulting in a themo-stressing of the paint system, just in that area.
As far as "new products' producing less heat, yes and no.
It is the revolutions of the buffer, how high of speed, amount of pressure applied, type of pad used, time spent in a spot, etc that are the main culprits of creating the heat, not so much as a product.
I've done some testing using a Porter Cable dual action, a Cyclo and a Ryobi dual action and found that with enough time, pressure and some pads I could create a skin temp of in excess of 215F.
So much for what one is told is fool-proof.
Grumpy
Hughes at Ford Body and Paint Tech Center asked us to do some field research on vehicle's skin temps versus their lab testing.
The temps were staggering!
Dark Green metalic actually showed a higher skin temp than black. According to my contacts at PPG and DuPont that is due to the pigment and mica particles, retaining heat.
Some colors were showing as high as 260F.
The problem is that while the top surfaces of a vehicle may obtain such temps, they are "even" on the surfaces and the paint system is designed to expand and contact evenly over the substrate.
Put too high of heat in one area and you may observe what happens with certain vehicles where the clear on the hood only fails.
IE, Chrysler LeBaron turbo's, etc.
The damage that buffing and attaining excessive temps is that it is "localized", resulting in a themo-stressing of the paint system, just in that area.
As far as "new products' producing less heat, yes and no.
It is the revolutions of the buffer, how high of speed, amount of pressure applied, type of pad used, time spent in a spot, etc that are the main culprits of creating the heat, not so much as a product.
I've done some testing using a Porter Cable dual action, a Cyclo and a Ryobi dual action and found that with enough time, pressure and some pads I could create a skin temp of in excess of 215F.
So much for what one is told is fool-proof.
Grumpy
Brad B
New member
But he said that on the internet so it must be true! 
Guitarist302008
New member
just tell him to hold his buffer in one place for like 10 minutes so that he melts ALL of the paint on the entire car together and it would like pool up and matrix itself into a whole new paint job and that would get rid of all the scratches on the entire car.