Have Long-throw DAs Replaced Rotary Polishers? (The Saga Continues...)

L

Lonnie

Active member
This question seems to come up from time to time and is really an extension of the thread:
http://www.autopia.org/forums/machine-polishing-sanding/184148-polisher-quandry.html started by Ronkh

I am wondering from those of you who own and are skilled in using rotary polishers in the past (or present) if you have migrated to the plethora of long-throw DA`s currently on the market and if these "new" polishing machines have replaced or even obsoleted the use of rotary polishers? Do LT-DAs finish out "better" than rotaries or are rotaries "quicker" time-wise in getting the job do over LT-DAs?? I will not even consider the learning curve/experience it takes to master a rotary over a LT-DA. I am pretty sure that there are literally hundred of "professional" detailers who work at dealerships or body shops who only are allowed to use rotaries because...well. that`s what the owner/supervisor/foreman/department head wants or owns or will allow.

I know that this question seems to be discussed ad nauseam and takes on a life of its own, but for many of us hobbyist (myself included) would like to know which one (s) others would suggest to "upgrade" from older polishers, whatever they may be, and get the most-bang-for-the-buck on their investment

I also see that having BOTH rotaries and LT-DAs , along with the experience and expertise in using them, is a key reason WHY so many of the posted pictures of vehicles that have been properly corrected will ALWAYS be (infinitely) "better" than what any hobbyist can achieve with an older Porter-Cable DA. It`s an extension and proof of the old axiom: "There`s a right tool for every job." It also reaffirms the notion that the same tools in the hands of a skilled operator (meaning someone with aptitude, ability, and experience) will far outweigh the results achieved by a novice, regardless of that person`s good-and well-meaning intentions and drive. I do not mean to diss anyone who tries, but there is a reason why professional detailers have spent literally hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on polishers: not because they can, but that they need to for their job. It`s also an extension of another axiom, "If you want something done right, pay a (skilled and equiped) professional."

Again, while I may be opening a Pandora`s box about this subject, I would just like to get the thoughts and opinions from my fellow Autopians on polishing equipment.
 
I started using the rotary in 1990 and it was all I used up until about 2006. Now days though it mostly sits in the bench collecting dust but I do still use it for wet sand removal or trashed cars where I want to cut hard and fast, aka wool and heavy compound.

If the same foam pad a polish is used I think there is very little time savings in using a rotary over a large throw DA like the BOSS or Rupes. The DA will however finish hologram free, which may not be possible with the rotary depending on the paint, pad, or polish used. For this reason the DA wins at 1-step corrections IMO

The rotary when equipped with a twisted wool pad and compound will cut faster than the DA but it will also leave the finish in a state that will likely require 2 or more steps to finish hologram free. New pad and polish technology is making this gap smaller everyday, but IME, starting with twisted wool pad and compound is a minimum 3 steps on the rotary. Hybrid wool pads like the Tuf-Buf or PFW do finish better to where only 1 more step is needed, but they also don`t cut as fast. I don`t believe large throw DA`s would work well with a twisted wool pad, but TBH I`ve never tired it. They do work well on the Flex though.

As far as finishing is concerned I think they are neck and neck when performed by equally skilled users, but there will always be those certain "finicky" paints where one tool works better than the other. Hard core rotary users will say different but to the naked eye and on a blind comparison test, I truly don`t believe anyone could pick out a rotary finished panel over a DA finished panel.

For me the DA just makes more sense for the majority of the jobs I do but the rotary will ALWAYS have a place in my arsenal. :bigups
 
I cut my teeth so to speak on a Makita rotary 14yrs ago. The DA polisher wasn`t popular yet. And to be honest I am glad I did learn because now there are instances where being confident in my rotary use has really produced some of my better results.

I mainly use my G21 or my 3401 because 90% of the time they get the job done. But for heavier correcting and wetsanding marks the rotary gets the call. Even my Flex PE8 mini rotary gets used a bit.

This new c7zo6 was in nice shape when it arrived. I busted out the rotary and did a really light polishing/jeweling with SF4000 before coating it. It really amped up the finish.



This Mach 1 was a full rotary correction before coating.




 
For me, I prefer cutting with the rotary for heavy defects and then finishing with the Rupes. I like jeweling with the rotary, but don`t do that in very many scenarios- basically just for my car. Gotta love the correction speed of the rotary, but can be difficult to finish with as I found out the hard way last week on a black Hyundai. The Rupes just makes it so easy it`s almost foolproof. Plus, one would be really surprised how much correction and how nice of a finish one can achieve with a R21, HD Adapt and a MF cutting pad.
 
RaskyR1 said:
... but I do still use it for wet sand removal or trashed cars where I want to cut hard and fast, aka wool and heavy compound.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much the main reason I picked up a rotary.

RaskyR1 said:
...

The rotary when equipped with a twisted wool pad and compound will cut faster than the DA but it will also leave the finish in a state that will likely require 2 or more steps to finish hologram free. New pad and polish technology is making this gap smaller everyday, but IME, starting with twisted wool pad and compound is a minimum 3 steps on the rotary....
Click to expand...

Rasky, in your experience, do you think the 3 steps with the rotary is still quicker than 2 steps with the DA?
 
I totally agree with RaskyR1`s evaluation above and anyone who has ever seen his work - even in the past Decade+, - will know he is absolutely one of the Best...

He has mad skills that come from the auto body and paint craft and that definitely has helped him go way farther than a casual detailer will ever get without all those years in service...

I have been using a Rotary long enough to be able to understand how to use it to do as much work for me as possible AND still finish out really darn great..

Am not of the persuasion that needs to absolutely go crazy fast and and hard on paintwork, but would rather take the time to Work the paint, media, pad, and machine, and find the best working combination for that vehicle that day, knowing that the next day, it might act differently because of temperature and humidity...

I am convinced from years of observation of hundreds of auto body and paint shops that the need to Move Units in and out per week, is impossibly high, and the poor Painter has to not only do a perfect paint job but then has to finish the work with a quick compounding to smooth it all out and then do the adjoining panels next to the work, so it all (and I have said this a hundred times) Matches... :)

Unfortunately, the skillset needed and the time given to do a really good rotary polishing of newly painted work have both sunk down to levels that are looking pretty bad to even the newest person on this Forum; and that is why we see so many vehicles looking like they went through a Swirl-o-Matic machine or something, going down the road...

It does take time to learn how to master the Rotary and it also helps if there is someone to give tips and helpful feedback.. But that person would have to be able to also do very, very, good work with this tool, and those old guys - and some really great, bright, hard-working, young guys are getting harder to find...

But this tool can be mastered, and if not, there would not be thousands of them still in service even at the automobile plants, aircraft plants, etc., that use them on the assembly lines, and they do not swirl up the paint..

For example, how many times have you seen a brand new German car or Japanese car come off the truck, fresh from the factory with paint all swirled up??
Yeah, I have never seen one like that either...

Looking at this question in the broadest terms, I feel that the Rotary will always have an advantage because it is Direct Drive, no other moving parts, no hard on the joints vibration, and you can increase the speed really high if needed and get instant response...

So, what if one does this and is pretty good, but not a Master yet, and somehow introduces swirls into the paintwork and for some reason, cannot remove them easily??

That is where the Random Orbitals come in and totally help remove things out of paint very quickly at this stage...

And certainly, the Random Orbitals can apply glazes and waxes much easier and faster with perfect results (than probably most Rotary users can), and then you are done with that vehicle!

So it appears to me in my experiences for my needs, preferences, and business plan, I want both types of machines in the shop always, and even with the most finicky paint, from any country, I will Always put a pad on the Makita and see what I can do first to get absolutely clear, glossy, results quickly, and then if it needs something else after, I can always bring out the Flex 3401VRG...:)
Dan F
 
I, like Ronnie am a hobbyist and not a professional. I only have one "long throw" orbital (the Rupes Nano) so my exposure is limited. IMHO as a hobbyist the rotary is just too large, heavy and dangerous for me. I have the Mikita Rotary and it is a fine machine, but compared to my Porter Cable DA just way harder to control. So for me it is the DA (or Nano). I enjoy working on my paint and as a hobby, time is the least of my worries. If I was doing as a businessthen, the Rotary would be alive and well. The recent advances in pads and polishes/compounds has greatly improved the performance of the DA. I think the manufactures of the products recognize the majority of purchases will be in the DA family and therefore that is sweet spot for sales growth. Just my opinions.
 
CrispyGP2001 said:
I, like Ronnie am a hobbyist and not a professional. I only have one "long throw" orbital (the Rupes Nano) so my exposure is limited. IMHO as a hobbyist the rotary is just too large, heavy and dangerous for me. I have the Mikita Rotary and it is a fine machine, but compared to my Porter Cable DA just way harder to control. So for me it is the DA (or Nano). I enjoy working on my paint and as a hobby, time is the least of my worries. If I was doing as a businessthen, the Rotary would be alive and well. The recent advances in pads and polishes/compounds has greatly improved the performance of the DA. I think the manufactures of the products recognize the majority of purchases will be in the DA family and therefore that is sweet spot for sales growth. Just my opinions.
Click to expand...
Isn`t the Rupes Nano a compact polisher? If so, what made you get that over a full size Rupes Orbital?
 
I enjoy my cheapo rotary, I have a Rupes 21, and I just don`t feel as comfortable with it. I love my GG6 with 4 inch pads on it, it is not as efficient as either other machine but it is my favorite set up. I like the control I have with it and my rotary, where as the large throw, though easy to control, bothers me because I can`t be as intricate with it as I would like.
 
JustJesus said:
This is pretty much the main reason I picked up a rotary.



Rasky, in your experience, do you think the 3 steps with the rotary is still quicker than 2 steps with the DA?
Click to expand...

I think that`s a very hard question to give a definitive answer to as there are so many variables. I think in general more correction will be achieved with a 3-step rotary process than a 2-step on the LT DA, but I would expect the 2-step LT DA to be a faster process...at least for me. Again, way to many variables to give a definitive answer.

Ones things for sure, how long a users works a product can greatly influence polishing times. I can make a few quick passes and basically "short cycle" a product and still call it a "step".
 
RaskyR1 said:
I think that`s a very hard question to give a definitive answer to as there are so many variables. I think in general more correction will be achieved with a 3-step rotary process than a 2-step on the LT DA, but I would expect the 2-step LT DA to be a faster process...at least for me. Again, way to many variables to give a definitive answer.

Ones things for sure, how long a users works a product can greatly influence polishing times. I can make a few quick passes and basically "short cycle" a product and still call it a "step".
Click to expand...

You bring up a great point here. One thing I really love about a rotary is how smoothly and quickly it breaks down the abrasives in certain compounds/polishes. For Example Menzerna FG400 and sf4000 work great on a DA but I find being that they have diminishing abrasives the rotary breaks down the abrasives quicker and more effective than a DA. Menzerna and a rotary is very pleasant to use.
 
Justins00ss said:
You bring up a great point here. One thing I really love about a rotary is how smoothly and quickly it breaks down the abrasives in certain compounds/polishes. For Example Menzerna FG400 and sf4000 work great on a DA but I find being that they have diminishing abrasives the rotary breaks down the abrasives quicker and more effective than a DA. Menzerna and a rotary is very pleasant to use.
Click to expand...

Justin -
Your work pictured above on the Corvette and Mustang is absolutely stunning!!!!
You Killed them !!!!!
Wow !!!
Rotary Powaaaaa`.... :)
Dan F
 
I`ve used a rotary my whole detailing career and still do. I`ve tried a gg6 d.a. and it was okay but I was having trouble with the cutting ability. Not sure if I had enough time behind the machine to tell if I really liked it or not. I would really like to try a long throw da like a g15 or 21. I`ve always used dewalt or makita rotary. Right now I use the dwp849x....think my next purchase is gonna be a flex pe14. I want one bad. Lol. I would love to also get a long throw and get some good hours behind it and sharpen my skills on both!

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk
 
pmdr85 said:
....think my next purchase is gonna be a flex pe14. I want one bad. Lol.
Click to expand...

I got one recently. Haven`t taken it to paint yet, but it feels damn good in my hands. I`m a smaller dude, though, at 5`6" and didn`t feel as comfortable holding the DeWalt or the Makita.

Interestingly enough, I bought a rotary (PE14) prior to any long throw machine! (still don`t have one)
 
I think they both have their place in the arsenal. I love my PE-8 on headlights & windshields. I love my 3401 & Rupes 21 for paint on vehicles. My rotary gets the call when it`s time to do the boat. I have used the rotary on my vehicles but prefer the LTDA. I have done the opposite on the boat & prefer the rotary. Personal preference and comfort level with each machine is how I make the call on which one to reach for.
 
whitewater25 said:
I think they both have their place in the arsenal. I love my PE-8 on headlights & windshields. I love my 3401 & Rupes 21 for paint on vehicles. My rotary gets the call when it`s time to do the boat. I have used the rotary on my vehicles but prefer the LTDA. I have done the opposite on the boat & prefer the rotary. Personal preference and comfort level with each machine is how I make the call on which one to reach for.
Click to expand...

Whitewater25 -

I agree with you - you need both for different tasks..

When I lived in the Pacific Northwest, I ran into one of the Best Boat Detailers in that entire area, and he and his crew use Nothing but Rotary Power on all the boats they Detail..

He told me they need the absolute power of direct drive, the rpm`s, and the reliability of a Rotary with only 1 moving part and laughed when Companies sent them
Random Orbitals to test out for them... They would bring them to me and I would test them and tell them what I thought..

Boat Detailers that work all year like these guys routinely kill all Rotary machines as well - it`s the result of grinding on gelcoat for days at a time...

And here I am running my Makita up from soft-start 600rpm to slowly and thoroughly massage the pad, product, and the paintwork together so they are very happy when done... :)

After doing a few Aircraft, I just knew I would never want to Detail a dang boat either... Rotary or not... It`s just too much real estate... :)
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
Whitewater25 -

I agree with you - you need both for different tasks..

When I lived in the Pacific Northwest, I ran into one of the Best Boat Detailers in that entire area, and he and his crew use Nothing but Rotary Power on all the boats they Detail..

He told me they need the absolute power of direct drive, the rpm`s, and the reliability of a Rotary with only 1 moving part and laughed when Companies sent them
Random Orbitals to test out for them... They would bring them to me and I would test them and tell them what I thought..

Boat Detailers that work all year like these guys routinely kill all Rotary machines as well - it`s the result of grinding on gelcoat for days at a time...

And here I am running my Makita up from soft-start 600rpm to slowly and thoroughly massage the pad, product, and the paintwork together so they are very happy when done... :)

After doing a few Aircraft, I just knew I would never want to Detail a dang boat either... Rotary or not... It`s just too much real estate... :)
Dan F
Click to expand...
I`ve done boats several times at lake winni in n.h. and it is alot of buffing. Imo and expierience it seems that each gelcoat react different to different products and pads. It was a whole new ball game when it came to the term "test spot" lol

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk
 
Stokdgs said:
Justin -
Your work pictured above on the Corvette and Mustang is absolutely stunning!!!!
You Killed them !!!!!
Wow !!!
Rotary Powaaaaa`.... :)
Dan F
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I brought up a similar discussion over on the AG forum asking who learned on a rotary and who still uses one?

If you are just a hobbyist that does there own cars then you will probably never need a rotary. But if you truly are trying to be in business and do correction work then learning the skills to run a rotary will come in handy sooner or later. Even if it`s used just for cutting purposes.
 
The rotary is still the king and I feel that when it comes to refining paint there is nothing better
with the introduction of super slow speed machines like the fein wpo14-15xe which I own and Which fein has now sadly discontinued and the flex range, we can now do things we couldn`t with 900+ rpm machines.
I love rotary but I love large throw DA too.
With almost twenty years of rotary under my belt, I will never stop using it even if the whole industry does
 
If we think more about it, isnt it that abrasive primary does all the eroding of the paintwork where as the pad and buffing motion compliment how the abrasive is rubbed into the paint. One may argue that he can remove more defects with hand than using any machines just by using a more abrasive sandpaper, just that the finish will be horrible. I think if a huge market uses DA and compound manufacturers have significant incentive to innovate compound just for the motion of DA, I dont see how a DA cannot replace rotary in removing defects. Many compounds still cut significantly more with added pressure, hence direct drive machine will have an edge over the DA which is why it is still the choice of defects removal.
 
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