ptim
New member
This may be a repeated thread, but do you have to have a buffer to get a good shine or can you do the same job by hand. That is if the automobile has a decent coat of paint to begin with.:nixweiss
Hand vs Buffer Question
- Thread starter ptim
- Start date
Newport Viper
New member
PC is the only way to go.
Accumulator
Well-known member
While Scottwax is able to get incredible results by hand, he's the exception. MOST people get FAR better results using a random orbital (like the PC) and some of us even need a rotary to get the results we want (at least in some cases). Especially with some of the harder clearcoats.
*IF* your paint is already in VERY good condition, you might do fine by hand *IF* you have a lot of time, patience, stamina, and self-discipline.
I myself use a machine for everything I can.
*IF* your paint is already in VERY good condition, you might do fine by hand *IF* you have a lot of time, patience, stamina, and self-discipline.
I myself use a machine for everything I can.
In reality, you probably could get Scottwax-like results by hand if you simply spent a lot of time and sweat working at it. IIRC, I think a few members do, but they don't post a lot.
The reason why the PC often provides better results is that it is a huge time and WORK saving device. People tend to get either tired or simply impatient before they can put in all the work necessary to perfect the finish.
The reason why the PC often provides better results is that it is a huge time and WORK saving device. People tend to get either tired or simply impatient before they can put in all the work necessary to perfect the finish.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Yeah, I'm not thrilled by my last response on this thread 
The PC is just a "fast hand". Faster, less fatigable, and more consistent than most HUMAN hands, but just a fast hand nonetheless. Unlike a rotary, it doesn't do any kind of work that's functionally DIFFERENT from what *CAN* be done by hand.
The PC is just a "fast hand". Faster, less fatigable, and more consistent than most HUMAN hands, but just a fast hand nonetheless. Unlike a rotary, it doesn't do any kind of work that's functionally DIFFERENT from what *CAN* be done by hand.
I didn't see anything wrong with it.... *shrug*Accumulator said:Yeah, I'm not thrilled by my last response on this thread
Scottwax IS the exception - I don't even remember who those few people are who said they correct serious paint defects by hand! One guy I only remember because his method was to simply break one monumental task up into a whole bunch of smaller jobs spread out over a week or so. That way he wouldn't collapse halfway through. :lol
Accumulator,
I received a PC for Christmas, my first experience didn't go too well but with some help from you and the others that responded to my thread and some practice on other peoples cars I am getting comfortable using it. I can do things now that I would never be able to do by hand. I know a PC will never give you the results a rotary will but the results are much better than what most people would even get close to by hand.
I have read a few posts recently where peolpe are saying a PC can't correct paint. What exactly are they saying? I have seen hundreds of before and after pics on Autopia and other forums of some amazing results and the work was done with a PC. If removing swirls, water spot etching, and oxidation is not paint correction what is it?
I received a PC for Christmas, my first experience didn't go too well but with some help from you and the others that responded to my thread and some practice on other peoples cars I am getting comfortable using it. I can do things now that I would never be able to do by hand. I know a PC will never give you the results a rotary will but the results are much better than what most people would even get close to by hand.
I have read a few posts recently where peolpe are saying a PC can't correct paint. What exactly are they saying? I have seen hundreds of before and after pics on Autopia and other forums of some amazing results and the work was done with a PC. If removing swirls, water spot etching, and oxidation is not paint correction what is it?
imported_BretFraz
New member
Stevet,
It all really depends on the extent of the damage. A PC can remove light damage such as most swirls and light oxidation. Anything more serious needs the rotary's ability of generating heat and speed. For example, acid rain damage can't be touched by a PC unless its very light. But a rotary can level the paint sufficiently to remove it.
And don't completely believe the pics you see posted. They're not indicative of what the car really looks like in most cases. A little camera skills can make a nasty car look showroom perfect. I'm sure you've seen some cars that look great in a certain light and terrible in another. Amplify that by 10X when it comes to photographed cars.
It all really depends on the extent of the damage. A PC can remove light damage such as most swirls and light oxidation. Anything more serious needs the rotary's ability of generating heat and speed. For example, acid rain damage can't be touched by a PC unless its very light. But a rotary can level the paint sufficiently to remove it.
And don't completely believe the pics you see posted. They're not indicative of what the car really looks like in most cases. A little camera skills can make a nasty car look showroom perfect. I'm sure you've seen some cars that look great in a certain light and terrible in another. Amplify that by 10X when it comes to photographed cars.
imported_mirrorfinishman
New member
ptim said:
ptim,
As a detailing professional who has been in business since 1986 let me be the first to tell you that you do not need a buffer to get a good results.
Contrary to many popular posts you can actually do the same job, much more safely by hand.
bretfraz,
You used acid rain damage as an example of a paint problem that a PC can't touch unless it is very light. If you made many passes with a PC would it not eventualy remove enough paint to level it and remove the problem? I know this would take much longer than a rotary but still do you think it can be done?
People seem to be saying that you can do everything by hand that you can do with a PC it will just take longer (a lot longer). Would I be incorrect to say that you can do everything with a PC that you can do with a rotary it will just take a lot longer?
You used acid rain damage as an example of a paint problem that a PC can't touch unless it is very light. If you made many passes with a PC would it not eventualy remove enough paint to level it and remove the problem? I know this would take much longer than a rotary but still do you think it can be done?
People seem to be saying that you can do everything by hand that you can do with a PC it will just take longer (a lot longer). Would I be incorrect to say that you can do everything with a PC that you can do with a rotary it will just take a lot longer?
Accumulator
Well-known member
SteveT- There are some major paint correction tasks where a rotary will do things a PC/hand just can't do. The combination of *HEAT* and abrasion will affect paint in ways that abrasion alone cannot do. And, DONE CORRECTLY, it will actually be LESS aggressive towards the paint, removal wise. Some say that the rotary doesn't just REMOVE paint, it also MOVES it, but leaves it there. I've seen some pretty unbelievable work done with rotaries that tells me this is true. Can I do it? I dunno, I sincerely doubt it and I'm not about to try on MY cars! But I've SEEN IT DONE, firsthand. It was as if the paint was "melted".
Without HEAT, the only way to be more aggressive is to use a coarser abrasive. This will, of course, require more follow-up work, and ends up meaning more paint gets removed. Often more than you'd need to REMOVE with a rotary. And sometimes, you STILL don't get the same results. Or at least *I* don't, and I've done this stuff for a little while myself. First used a rotary in the '70s, last used one in the '80s; this was back when I was getting paid for my detailing efforts. Just bought a new one recently (previously just used the shop's machine).
BTW, just working it LONGER won't do it. It's not quite the same as the way water will wear down a rock over many years. Similar to the acid-rain example, I worked the trunk lid of my friend's A6 with a both Cyclo and a PC @6/wool/FCRC for HOURS. I did not remove all the marring, but I still had to remove MORE paint to smooth what the FCRC inflicted. Polishing that car (imperfectly) took me over 20 hours!! Didn't even need magnification to see the marring that was left, very disappointing. Looked sorta nice under flourescents, though. That's when I bought my rotary, after not using one for years. I've since removed marring that was a LOT worse than the stuff on her car, quickly and easily.
MOST people, even Autopians, can get by without a rotary. But *in my experience* there's stuff you just can't do without one, if only for "practical purposes", especially with some of today's clearcoats. And there are MANY applications where the rotary can save you 90% of the time involved. But everyone should do/use what's right for them.
Without HEAT, the only way to be more aggressive is to use a coarser abrasive. This will, of course, require more follow-up work, and ends up meaning more paint gets removed. Often more than you'd need to REMOVE with a rotary. And sometimes, you STILL don't get the same results. Or at least *I* don't, and I've done this stuff for a little while myself. First used a rotary in the '70s, last used one in the '80s; this was back when I was getting paid for my detailing efforts. Just bought a new one recently (previously just used the shop's machine).
BTW, just working it LONGER won't do it. It's not quite the same as the way water will wear down a rock over many years. Similar to the acid-rain example, I worked the trunk lid of my friend's A6 with a both Cyclo and a PC @6/wool/FCRC for HOURS. I did not remove all the marring, but I still had to remove MORE paint to smooth what the FCRC inflicted. Polishing that car (imperfectly) took me over 20 hours!! Didn't even need magnification to see the marring that was left, very disappointing. Looked sorta nice under flourescents, though. That's when I bought my rotary, after not using one for years. I've since removed marring that was a LOT worse than the stuff on her car, quickly and easily.
MOST people, even Autopians, can get by without a rotary. But *in my experience* there's stuff you just can't do without one, if only for "practical purposes", especially with some of today's clearcoats. And there are MANY applications where the rotary can save you 90% of the time involved. But everyone should do/use what's right for them.
ptim
New member
mirrorfinishman said:
Thanks, that pretty much answers my question.:xyxthumbs
jerry@robs
New member
To be honest, there are quite a lot of defects (serious ones) that is best tackled by hand.
In my case, I wetsanded, compounded and polished my Corolla by hand... It took me 5 weekends to finish the car as one hood will take around 5 hrs to complete. That was before I have access to any detailing tool.
There are cases in our shop, the rotary pretty much works 95% of the time when someone comes in for detailing (paint), it's more consistent and a lot faster to complete, but by no means that a hand job (c'mon what else should I call it??) cannot replicate, it'll just take too much time and wont make sense of a business...
I've stayed in the US for about 4 years and honestly, even the worse beaters in the Northeast junk yards will have better paint condition than most 5 year old paints here. The reason is mainly weather and pollution. 9 out of 12 months, it rains in Manila, and by rain, I dont mean the usual rain-for-several-hours rain, but we always have a daily hard rain downpour (almost storm-like intensity) for about an hour then the sun will blast through with 30deg++ C almost immediately after, then a couple of hours later rain galore again. Our rain is highly acidic and most cars here have really bad acid rain etches and hard water stains on all exterior surfaces.
We get some relatively new cars that have like 5 or so watermark etches and we usually spot compounding by hand, then polish the whole panel with a rotary. It minimizes risk of running a buffer on the same spot for too long.
But trust me, if you can polish your car by hand and really like the final result, it feels more gratifying than doing it by any machine... I think that's why we appreciate the final topping products more than we do polishes and compounds (refer to my other thread hehe)
In my case, I wetsanded, compounded and polished my Corolla by hand... It took me 5 weekends to finish the car as one hood will take around 5 hrs to complete. That was before I have access to any detailing tool.
There are cases in our shop, the rotary pretty much works 95% of the time when someone comes in for detailing (paint), it's more consistent and a lot faster to complete, but by no means that a hand job (c'mon what else should I call it??) cannot replicate, it'll just take too much time and wont make sense of a business...
I've stayed in the US for about 4 years and honestly, even the worse beaters in the Northeast junk yards will have better paint condition than most 5 year old paints here. The reason is mainly weather and pollution. 9 out of 12 months, it rains in Manila, and by rain, I dont mean the usual rain-for-several-hours rain, but we always have a daily hard rain downpour (almost storm-like intensity) for about an hour then the sun will blast through with 30deg++ C almost immediately after, then a couple of hours later rain galore again. Our rain is highly acidic and most cars here have really bad acid rain etches and hard water stains on all exterior surfaces.
We get some relatively new cars that have like 5 or so watermark etches and we usually spot compounding by hand, then polish the whole panel with a rotary. It minimizes risk of running a buffer on the same spot for too long.
But trust me, if you can polish your car by hand and really like the final result, it feels more gratifying than doing it by any machine... I think that's why we appreciate the final topping products more than we do polishes and compounds (refer to my other thread hehe)
MongooseGA
New member
PC stands for Porter Cable, as in the maker of power tools. On this site, it refers to the Porter Cable 7424/7336 (same machine). On the home page, top left corner, you'll see a little link for the "secret decoder ring" that tells you the meaning of all the acronyms used on this site.
Hand polishing can be effective. However, there is no comparison between ease of application and results that can be achived using the PC with the right combination of pads and product. Although many people believe that hand polishing and waxing is better because it is safer. You would really have to be using an extremely aggressive product, such as a heavy compound to "damage" your paint and even then you could probably correct the problem with a different product/s