Had to turn a job down today

S

Scottwax

New member
I had a referral from a couple of my regulars to do an exterior detail on a black M35 (they are all friends, or coworkers) this afternoon. The guy had just bought the car from CarMax and said he wasn't happy with the detail job they did. When I got to his house, I could see why. Severe rotary holograms and spiderswirls. In the full sun, most of the car actually looked grey instead of black (I took some pics but the roll of film is still half full so it may be a couple days before I can post them). In addition, they told him they had the bumpers repainted due to stone chips and scrapes but it was very obvious the passenger side front fender was also repainted (orange peel difference was very noticable). A few overspray issues too. He said a Carfax report came back clean on the car.



Anyway, UDM, Meguiars polishing pad and Optimum Polish added a lot of gloss but very little improvement in the swirls. White swirlbuster (cutting) pad and Optimum Compound was a little better but still maybe 30% correction. I switched to my Cyclo, yellow Edge cutting pads and Optimum Hyper Compound and was getting about 75% hologram correction on the driver's door but maybe 50% improvement in the halo swirls (absolutely the worst I have ever seen) on the driver's side front fender.



At that point, I called the customer out to look at the car. At some angles, the paint looked really good but at other angles, the halo swirls were still really noticable and some faint hologramming remained. I told him I didn't feel I was going to get enough correction for what I'd need to charge for the amount of buffing I was going to have to do. I said the paint has issues too serious for me to correct. I also told him he needs to take several pictures of the car in the full sun, both sides and all the horizontal surfaces before he takes it back to CarMax to complain. He wanted to know about maybe just doing a quick polish and wax but I said if I do the whole car and problems remain, CarMax will try to put it off on me and he is out any kind of solution they owe him. I took pictures before I started and of the panels I polished out so he can prove those areas I polished looked much worse before I touched it.



The car in question is a 2006 Infiniti M35 with less than 10,000 miles on it and the dreaded underhood sticker warning "hard clear coat". I think much of the car is going to have to be wetsanded (assuming enough clear is left after the dealer hacked up the car) to remove the defects. Considering I was able to get 90%+ correction on a black Audi with similarly rock hard paint with my Cyclo and I can't get anywhere close with this Infiniti tells me the defects are really deep on this car. I haven't used a rotary in years and wouldn't want this car to be a test bed...plus I don't think a rotary will be able to achieve full correction either.



He is going to call CarMax tomorrow to let them know he wants to come in and talk to the head manager about the swirls on Monday. He really doesn't want to let their detailers have another crack at the car though and if the car needs to be repainted, he is concerned about diminished value when he eventually sells the car. I told him I'd put him in touch with the lawyer my brother used to sue the bodyshop that trashed his new truck when he took it in for hail damage repair.



Real shame about how bad this car is. The interior looks perfect and the mileage is very low. Goes to show you should never buy a black car without seeing it in the full sun.



Anyone else run into this? Also, anyone have a good pad/product combo for the new Infiniti clear coats?
 
Sorry to hear Scott.



I'd bet if you could get it %75 better with UDM then a Rotary would definately get it %100.



I worked on an 04 and the clear seemed very soft, maybe they changed it since then.



However I reciently worked on a black Caddy CTS V that a body shop destroyed and even after 3 passes with my Makita, LC orange pad and Men PG it was only about %90 inproved and it truely did need to be wetsanded to get the deeper remaining swirls that were ground in with dirty wool pad.
 
Josh-the newer Infinitis actually have a sticker on the underside of the hood that says "hard clear coat" and something about special refinishing materials.
 
I worked on a black 07 G35 it was a pain! The rotary was all that would touch the swirls. much harder than my audi's paint. Sometimes those jobs just arnt worth it. your a good man to quit while you were ahead....
 
That 'hard clear coat' sticker on the Infiniti refers to the New Cross Link Clearcoat (NCLC) painting process. When you read the rest of the label you will see that it continues to say 'use approved refinish process'. I think this refers to re-painting refinishing, not detailing.



It looks like the swirls you were seeing in the M35 were much more damaging, since they were in this new NCLC tpye of paint. With the surface being so hard, it make you wonder why anyone would take a machine to these types of finishes in the first place. Hey, let's face it, the swirls did'nt get there by themselves.
 
Scott,

A dynabrade would have taken those swirls and halograms out. That thing is great. 3/4 inch offset makes twice the cutting range of most orbitals and it's smooth too.



Derrick
 
mirrorfinishman said:
That 'hard clear coat' sticker on the Infiniti refers to the New Cross Link Clearcoat (NCLC) painting process. When you read the rest of the label you will see that it continues to say 'use approved refinish process'. I think this refers to re-painting refinishing, not detailing.



It looks like the swirls you were seeing in the M35 were much more damaging, since they were in this new NCLC tpye of paint. With the surface being so hard, it make you wonder why anyone would take a machine to these types of finishes in the first place. Hey, let's face it, the swirls did'nt get there by themselves.
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Mmirrorfinishman

Most dealerships pay their detailer by the hour, so they have to LOOK like they know what they are doing. The poor customers don't stand a chance of getting a good quality job. It's a shame.



Derrick
 
Derrick,



I guess it's another example of why it is so important to share the knowledge. Whether it's an hourly detailer or someone with years of experience, it is never a good idea to think you know it all and can now stop learning. We all need to constantly continue to learn, and share what we learn about the products and the changing processes. Let's face it, as things change, we need to change along with them. That's the beauty of a place like Autopia.



On a personal level, I have always stayed rather conservative in regard to using machines. And because of that, I have also had to turn down a few jobs, especially since I do all of the polishing and waxing by hand. The way I see it, why would I want to go around correcting every hourly detailers poor quality job, when I can go out there and find clients who are only interested in having their vehicles polished and waxed by hand. Been right so far.
 
Scott - I would take a look at the new 1Z Intensive Polish - it claims to remove 1200 grit sand marks from Ceramiclear. It's definitely going to be my next purchase when I run out of UCCL. 1Z products are usually very dual-action friendly, too.



See if he can get carmax to cover the cost of you polishing it down - I doubt they'll find anyone in the area good enough to make it look decent with a rotary, and I guarantee they won't find someone who will make it look as good as you do.
 
Sorry to hear about the loss of time, but glad to see you did the right thing, I hope others understand when to say I'm afraid I can't help you. As opposed to taking the job and not giving the customer what they pay for.
 
mirrorfinishman said:
The way I see it, why would I want to go around correcting every hourly detailers poor quality job, when I can go out there and find clients who are only interested in having their vehicles polished and waxed by hand. Been right so far.
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Because the pay is KILLER!:D
 
themightytimmah said:
Scott - I would take a look at the new 1Z Intensive Polish - it claims to remove 1200 grit sand marks from Ceramiclear. It's definitely going to be my next purchase when I run out of UCCL. 1Z products are usually very dual-action friendly, too.



See if he can get carmax to cover the cost of you polishing it down - I doubt they'll find anyone in the area good enough to make it look decent with a rotary, and I guarantee they won't find someone who will make it look as good as you do.
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I told him if he can't get any satisfaction from CarMax, I'd need a full day to polish out the car but can't guarantee full correction.



I'll look into the 1Z polish and also into getting a rotary and relearning how to use one. The thing is though, the black S55 I did a few weeks ago looked just as bad and the UDM got me about 95% correction on it. Either the defects on this car are a lot deeper or the paint is a lot harder.



I am sure I made the right decision to stop working on the car until he can get it to CarMax and see what they are willing to do to make him happy. Just such a shame they butchered an otherwise cherry, low mileage car.
 
Nothing wrong with turning down jobs. Although not in car detailing, I've turned down jobs a time or two. As the poker saying goes, you gotta know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em
 
What is carmax, a dealership? I doubt the dealer is going to do anything about it.. the most they will do is take in the car again and have their detailers go at it one more time.. but no way are they going to spend money outside to get it fixed. Once the car is sold, its sold unless something really bad goes wrong within a certain amount of days (tranny problem, engine blowing, etc). Even if it came with a warranty, that does not include paint condition because you saw the car before buying it although you may not of saw it in the full sun. There is nothing much he can do.. dealers have probably gone through this type of complaints many times.. and unless the manager is a understanding and nice guy, which i highly doubt, he will just BS his way out of it.



I will never buy a car that looks like its been repainted at the dealership. They do it the cheapest way possible and probably wont last long. They may be right tho about the car never been in an accident. Was there chips on the hood too? Because if they resprayed the bumper because it was all chipped up, then there gotta be chips on the hood too unless it has that clear guard on it. Or they might of sprayed it because it got scraped or hit lightly. The fender too.. they might of sprayed it because it got scratched bad, keyed, scraped, etc. But i know they wouldnt have the balls to sell something thats been hit and not claim it.. its risky of their part.



Im sure you will get way better results with a rotary. Dont be afraid of it as you can still always finish up with a porter or udm if you like. Is he really looking for perfection? Or does he just want his car to look right? A lot of people around here doesnt care much for getting a butt smooth, crystal clear finish. They just want the bad swirls reduced, scratches out, and such.



Best of luck to you and im sure he'll be happy with your results.
 
Reflectionz said:
Im sure you will get way better results with a rotary. Dont be afraid of it as you can still always finish up with a porter or udm if you like. Is he really looking for perfection? Or does he just want his car to look right? A lot of people around here doesnt care much for getting a butt smooth, crystal clear finish. They just want the bad swirls reduced, scratches out, and such.



Best of luck to you and im sure he'll be happy with your results.
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He wants the car to look significantly better. I would say (and I am sure a lawyer could successfully agrue) that a person has a reasonable expectation that a luxury car with less than 10,000 miles is going to have paint in excellent condition. There is absolutely no excuse for a car to be hammered like that and if people would be jumping down dealership's throats on a very regular basis, they'd get their act in gear and train their people properly.



As bad as the car was, I just didn't want to proceed any further because the dealer has a responsibility to make the car right, whatever the cost. I didn't want to buff the whole car out and then have the dealer tell the guy "tough crap, you should have given us a chance to make it right first". The two panels I polished look significantly better but not to the level I'd feel comfortable charging someone for. He'd still see it at some angles in the sun and probably be pretty unhappy.



It has been so long since I have used a rotary (body shop class I took in high school in 1978-9) that I don't want to relearn on that car.
 
Weird about that sticker; every single Infiniti I've ever done has had it and they are all super soft. Maybe there was more repainting going on that just the bumpers; either way, a bummer for the owner.
 
Picus said:
Weird about that sticker; every single Infiniti I've ever done has had it and they are all super soft. Maybe there was more repainting going on that just the bumpers; either way, a bummer for the owner.
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Smae with Nissans of the same year. I have a 2003 M45 with that sticker and the paint is *very* easy to correct--as is every other Nissan/Infiniti that I have detailed with that sticker.



Scott, I would bet that the paint is not factory, or the holograms were just that bad. I have seen hologrmas created by a dirty wool pad @2500 RPM's and the results are not pretty. :D FWIW, Menzerna SIP via rotary and a polishing pad @1500-1700RPM's has been able to remove 90% of the holograms that I have come across.



Here's a pic of the sticker on a Q45 that I did a while back.



tn_IMG_2359.jpg
 
I was getting very little hazing from OHC/yellow combination and I know on the two black G35s I regular do, that combo would make them grey with haze. :nervous2:



I'll have some pics posted up some time tonight.
 
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