Going straight to rotary?

L

luni

New member
I am at the point where I must choose a machine to aid my detailing. PC is out of the question, because cost of the unit, plus shipping, taxes and transformer is too high and I can get much better machines for that.



So the choice basically boiled down to Makita B06040 or a rotary Makita 9227CB. The first costs about 400 euro and the other one 315, so the price difference is substantial.



Therefore I would like your oppinion if it is feasible to skip the dual action orbital buffer stage completely and go straight to rotary. I am well aware of the dangers when using the rotary, from holograming to paint burn. But on the other hand, the rotary still is regarded as top of the line tool which most detailers end up using sooner or later. So I am thinking, why not start using it right away and save some money :) Is there anything that a dual action can do and rotary cannot? I suppose it is possible to create mirror-like finishes with rotary so basically if you are skilled, you dont need anything but it...



Please share your thoughts on this.
 
Your first choice Makita B06040 is not a good choice. The Variable speed control dial is (1600 - 5800 OPM; 180 - 670 RPM), this is low and would not help you out much on more of the difficult tasks of detailing



Your second choice Makita 9227CB No Load Speed - Variable Trigger - (0-3,000rpm - Dial Speed Control - 600-3,000rpm), is the better because of the range of rpm.



Your better bet is the Makita 9227CB.



You can also check Ebay and do a price comparison, you might be able to get a better deal on there and have more options in your price range.
 
luni said:
... I am well aware of the dangers when using the rotary, from holograming to paint burn.... So I am thinking, why not start using it right away and save some money :) Is there anything that a dual action can do and rotary cannot? I suppose it is possible to create mirror-like finishes with rotary so basically if you are skilled, you dont need anything but it...



Please share your thoughts on this.
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Consider those "dangers" that you're aware of...just what *will* you do if you get holograms?



That "if skilled" part might bite you. How will you attain that level of skill? It won't come from doing a few beaters/scrap panels as individual paints respond very differently (there are some super-soft paints and other situations where I'd *never* advise the use of a rotary).



While a few people use nothing but the rotary, no way would *I* approach detailing that way (and I *did* it that way long ago, on other people's cars). Consider that Mike Phillips has been using a rotary for over 30 years and is good enough to be the product application guy for Meguiar's. When *he* says he needs to have a PC/DA and not just the rotary, IMO that's a big clue.
 
I'm going straight to a rotary. That doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea :)



I have the $50 Harbor Freight rotary en route currently, as I wanted the electronic speed control:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90820



I received my 8" Edge 2000 waffle pads and adapter on Tuesday, so hopefully if the rotary arrives before the weekend I'll have a chance to give it a go. I've read through the rotary thread a few times, and done a bunch of searching, so I feel I understand at least a few guidelines to get started.



I'm puzzled at the possibility of not being able to get out holograms with a rotary. I have so many threads of experienced folks stating they can get a perfect finish using only a rotary. If you have holograms, how can it be that they would fail to be removed with a gentle enough pad/product combo? I have no experience to go on, these are just my inexperienced wonderings.



If I *do* end up with holograms that I can't finish out, then I guess I'll have a good excuse to get a cyclo at that point ;)

Or if the sticker shock is just too much, maybe a layer of glaze to hide my shame (does that work to hide holograms?)..
 
There is different terminology I have seen with detailing, but caught of gaurd by the word hologramming. What does this refer to?
 
Holograms are a type of buffer swirls. They're the kind that (generally) only show up in natural sunlight and are only visible from certain viewing angles. They (generally) have a "rainbow" type appearance. They're (generally) rather shallow and not that hard to remove. Take out those "generally"s and you can have some real problems on your hands, but fortunately that doesn't happen all that often.



There are radically awful holograms caused by the unskilled (often with harsh compounds and/or wool pads) that are similar but worse. Sometimes these can only be removed by better work with a rotary. Some people here have encountered these on hard clear (Audis) and been unable to correct them with the PC.



Note that the answer isn't always to just use milder pads/products and/or to "do the job right". Some folks here have had trouble with holograms even when a) they know what they're doing, b) were using mild products correctly. Every now and then it's just a :nixweiss situation where a more gentle approach (PC/Cyclo/etc.) is the sensible solution.
 
I only use a rotary, I feel it delivers the best results in the shortest amount of time. As for usage my words of advice would be to keep it moving and keep it flat follow that and you should be okay. You don't need to crank up the RPM to grinder speeds, 1,000 - 1,200 has always worked well for me.



can you screw up a paint job fast with a rotary? yes! spend 1-2 hours here reading the posts about rotary usage and you should have developed a good mental library on what "not" to do or how not to use a rotary then give her a try. also, take your time at first, hurry it up and you'll screw it up.
 
Thanks for the input guys. So far the consensus is that rotary CANNOT be an end-all be-all device which will always produce perfect finish on all types of paint? I hope I can get some more input on this, after here and on other forums I certainly got the impression that highly skilled people use rotary exclusively and can get constant great results with it.



Actually, I am not buying the tool to start a business, I percieve detailing purely as a hobby. So taking care of my, family and friends cars.



Also, why is BO 6040 a bad choice? From what I read, it is regarded as one of the best machines for detailing, right up there with Festoll Rotex RO 150 FEQ. It has way more power than PC, is better balanced, better built and it has a forced rotation mode for tackling bad scratches. 5800 opm seems too slow? As far as I know, PC on speed dial 6 does around 6000, admitedly with a longer throw, but also with a lot less torque so it can easily bog down, whereas Makita probably cannot unless you are Hulk trying to polish granite floor.
 
The B06040 stats were 180-670 RPM. That is what I based the buffer on, low RPM range. I am assuming that the OPM stands for Orbits per minutes, in this case 1600-5800, not sure if that is good or not. I use the rotary, (DEWALT) where OPM is not used in it's stats.



So, as far as RPM it is low, as far as OPM not sure if it is good or not (for detailing). Sorry, if I mislead you on this one (based my opinion on one stat and not both).
 
1600 – 5800 OPM appears to be pretty much the ideal range for an electric DA. The PC goes 2500 – 6000 (and is much less powerful than the BO6040 so that 200 rpm disappears instantly when you apply any pressure), the Festool RO150 (used heavily on German car manufacturers' paint lines) runs 2,000 - 5,600 OPM/240 - 560 RPM and the Cyclo is fixed at 3000 OPM.



The Makita's 180 - 670 RPM (or Festool's 240 - 560 RPM) is not as slow as it sounds because that's a forced orbit mode not rotary.



Lots of detailers use only rotary buffers. That's the big reason we see so many horribly swirled up cars on the road. Not saying it's guaranteed that one will always install swirls with a rotary, only that a huge number of guys out there do.





PC.
 
When I am buffing I normally do the grunt work with the rotary, then follow it with an orbital. Not a good idea from work I have seen to use the rotary and finish from there with nothing behind it to finish the detailing process. (added food for thought)
 
autoprecise1 said:
The B06040 stats were 180-670 RPM. That is what I based the buffer on, low RPM range. I am assuming that the OPM stands for Orbits per minutes, in this case 1600-5800, not sure if that is good or not. I use the rotary, (DEWALT) where OPM is not used in it's stats.



So, as far as RPM it is low, as far as OPM not sure if it is good or not (for detailing). Sorry, if I mislead you on this one (based my opinion on one stat and not both).
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the bo6040 is great for detailing. it's a forced dual action machine that can either be a orbital or an orbital + forced rotary action on the pad. i have one and prefer it to my pc by a long shot.
 
admac said:
the bo6040 is great for detailing. it's a forced dual action machine that can either be a orbital or an orbital + forced rotary action on the pad. i have one and prefer it to my pc by a long shot.
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Very interesting. See, everyone learns something new :2thumbs:.



Do you use it to remove scratches and for faded paint as well?
 
autoprecise1 said:
Very interesting. See, everyone learns something new :2thumbs:.



Do you use it to remove scratches and for faded paint as well?
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i haven't worked on faded paint yet. most of the cars i work on are pretty new. but i've liked it for mild defect removal so far. i'm going to help out a friend of my girlfriend when i get back from my vacation. he bought a pretty rough looking early-90's 3-series in hunter green metallic. we'll see what we can do with that. :D
 
stage5 said:
What is the difference between the one ahains mentioned here on this thread



http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90820



and this one (it is listed for $29!!!)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92623



thanks.
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The first one has an electronic speed control with RPM read out. You set the RPM you want, and it maintains it.



The second one you set a dial to choose the speed, but it slows down / speeds up depending on the load for the motor. It does not have any kind of speed display so you do not know how fast it is going. The plus on this one is that it goes down to 300rpm versus 1000 RPM on the first one. From all of my reading here, I decided it was very OK to have a lower end limit of 1000. Some folks go as low as 600 from time to time, but it was not important to me.



I have another non-electronic controlled HF buffer that I'll sell cheap if anyone in the greater Seattle area wants it. Actually I'd prefer to trade it for detailing products :)

I never used the old one.. I"m just a big dork so I bought the 90820 one anyway :)
 
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