GM Quality Control

Exactly Scott! The new 7 is *almost* as painful to look at as the 6 which defines ugly IMHO.



GM had the Impala right and then made this, this thing that they have the nerve to put an SS badge on. It seems as though they will put the SS badge on *anything* these days and it just waters down the whole meaning of well, SS.



As far as the cars being similar in the Honda/Toyota line, they don't make one car good and then make a "cheap" version of it. They make a very good car and then make a better version of it. Those cars don't, however, compete in the same nameplate. Honda gets an Accord and Acura gets the TL. Very similar cars in what you can't see but feel and look like two very different cars. The 350Z and G35 coupe perform almost identical functions, are based on the same platform but serve two very different markets. 350 has an almost cult like following and the G35 seems to have created it's own following after just a few years.



How can GM fix it? They're going to have to start with a clean sheet of paper that's for sure.
 
SpoiledMan said:
As far as the cars being similar in the Honda/Toyota line, they don't make one car good and then make a "cheap" version of it. They make a very good car and then make a better version of it. Those cars don't, however, compete in the same nameplate.
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That's a distinction without a difference. In the end, one is nicer and the other is less nice. For the second part, you are claiming GM makes cars that are the same within a nameplate?



While I like exciting cars too, I'd disagree that today style sells cars. It sells some cars. But Toyota is continuing to move up on their way to being the biggest maker of cars. It isn't because of styling. They make some of the most boring cars on the planet. Chrysler has invigorated some lines with style, the Ram of several years ago with it's bold truck style increased their place in the market. The 300C/Magnum/Charger are doing that now also. I'm not sure if you can sustain a company on that, though. I mean, cars like the Thunderbird, New Beetle, etc, had styling appeal and sold like crazy for a few months. Then that was it. Sales have lagged since (the T-bird got axed). I can't help but wonder if that will happen to the Chrysler cars, especially as I see more and more rather unattractive base-models driving around. Without the 18+ inch wheels, chrome, and whatnot, the styling is really fairly ugly. The base cars look much less appealing than the Hemi versions.



As to SS's, the current Impala SS with 300+hp from a smallblock V8 is hardly tarnishing the image. Hopefully you like the rear styling as that's all most people will see, including owners of 1994-96 SS's. All the cars they put the SS badge on have hopped up motors, so what's the problem with that? Only on the Monte have they put it on a car with the same motor as the non-SS. I'm not sure the point of that, since they sell those on the "NASCAR" name, not on any SS heritage. Slap a #3 on the thing and they'll sell 'em all.



And am I the only one who thinks the 350Z is pretty ugly? The back end is terrible, it looks like some kind of insect. The G35 coupe is much better looking to my eye.
 
Aurora40 said:
That's a distinction without a difference. In the end, one is nicer and the other is less nice.
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If you're pessimistic.



For the second part, you are claiming GM makes cars that are the same within a nameplate?
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There was the Bonneville and Grand Prix but IIRC the Bonny is dead.



While I like exciting cars too, I'd disagree that today style sells cars. It sells some cars. But Toyota is continuing to move up on their way to being the biggest maker of cars. It isn't because of styling. They make some of the most boring cars on the planet.
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Agreed



Chrysler has invigorated some lines with style, the Ram of several years ago with it's bold truck style increased their place in the market. The 300C/Magnum/Charger are doing that now also. I'm not sure if you can sustain a company on that, though. I mean, cars like the Thunderbird, New Beetle, etc, had styling appeal and sold like crazy for a few months. Then that was it. Sales have lagged since (the T-bird got axed). I can't help but wonder if that will happen to the Chrysler cars, especially as I see more and more rather unattractive base-models driving around. Without the 18+ inch wheels, chrome, and whatnot, the styling is really fairly ugly. The base cars look much less appealing than the Hemi versions.
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I couldn't agree more and *I* think that one of the problems with retro cars is that you get "locked" into styling that leaves you nowhere to go from there. What do you do with the Mustang when it's time for an "update?" I'm with the thinking that that's the reason that the "new" Beetle hasn't changed.



As to SS's, the current Impala SS with 300+hp from a smallblock V8 is hardly tarnishing the image. Hopefully you like the rear styling as that's all most people will see, including owners of 1994-96 SS's. All the cars they put the SS badge on have hopped up motors, so what's the problem with that? Only on the Monte have they put it on a car with the same motor as the non-SS. I'm not sure the point of that, since they sell those on the "NASCAR" name, not on any SS heritage. Slap a #3 on the thing and they'll sell 'em all.
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When you had a perfect chassis to build on with the Imp SS, why do you kill it? Auto cross the two cars and the nose heavy pig just plows the front tires. The "old" (and real) SS will walk the new one.



And am I the only one who thinks the 350Z is pretty ugly? The back end is terrible, it looks like some kind of insect.
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Nope, very unattractive car with interior that leaves something to be desired but it has a following that wont give it up. Oh and it has that VQ motor that the Nissan guys are nuts about.



The G35 coupe is much better looking to my eye.
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Yep, much better looking car. I'd buy one if I had two less kids but......
 
Aurora40 said:
As to SS's, the current Impala SS with 300+hp from a smallblock V8 is hardly tarnishing the image. Hopefully you like the rear styling as that's all most people will see, including owners of 1994-96 SS's. All the cars they put the SS badge on have hopped up motors, so what's the problem with that? Only on the Monte have they put it on a car with the same motor as the non-SS. I'm not sure the point of that, since they sell those on the "NASCAR" name, not on any SS heritage. Slap a #3 on the thing and they'll sell 'em all.
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I'm sorry but 303 ponies from a V8 nowadays does nothing for me except make me ask why they like to waste gas. Subaru gets 300 horses out of a flat 4.
 
SpoiledMan said:
There was the Bonneville and Grand Prix but IIRC the Bonny is dead.
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These were never the same car, but there are plenty of GM examples: Caprice/Impala, Century/Regal, LeSabre/Park Ave. There were some wheelbase variations on the Buicks, but same platform. Unless you were referring to 20+ years ago when they had a "Bonneville G" I think it was called, which was the Bonny namplate on an A-body (Grand Prix/LeMans).
 
These were never the same car, but there are plenty of GM examples: Caprice/Impala, Century/Regal, LeSabre/Park Ave. There were some wheelbase variations on the Buicks, but same platform. Unless you were referring to 20+ years ago when they had a "Bonneville G" I think it was called, which was the Bonny namplate on an A-body (Grand Prix/LeMans).
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I could be mistaken but in recent years you almost couldn't tell them apart.
 
kgb said:
I'm sorry but 303 ponies from a V8 nowadays does nothing for me except make me ask why they like to waste gas. Subaru gets 300 horses out of a flat 4.
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Maybe you should check the numbers... The Subie gets 18mpg city/24 highway, and that's in a much smaller car with a manual tranny. The Impala SS gets 18 city/28 highway in a full-sized family car with an automatic. So who is it that's wasting gas?? But the Sub motor makes less torque and probably requires more maintenance and repairs, so there's that. At least you can feel good about your "specific output" when the SS owner nails you from a roll or passes you while your at the gas station.
 
Aurora40 said:
Maybe you should check the numbers... The Subie gets 18mpg city/24 highway, and that's in a much smaller car with a manual tranny. The Impala SS gets 18 city/28 highway in a full-sized family car with an automatic. So who is it that's wasting gas?? But the Sub motor makes less torque and probably requires more maintenance and repairs, so there's that. At least you can feel good about your "specific output" when the SS owner nails you from a roll or passes you while your at the gas station.
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Well, for one it is only a 2wd car. Anyone knoes AWD will require more gas. But the Subie has close to he same torque if not more. 300@4000 compaired to 323@4400. And I don't know why it would have more maintenance and repairs?
 
Scottwax said:
But Edwin....the new 7 series is UGLY!



Look at Nissan, the G35 coupe and 350Z are different, new and stunning to look at.
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The G35 is stunning, the Z is just plain ugly.
 
kgb said:
Well, for one it is only a 2wd car. Anyone knoes AWD will require more gas. But the Subie has close to he same torque if not more. 300@4000 compaired to 323@4400. And I don't know why it would have more maintenance and repairs?
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Ok, I can spell it out even more if you'd like. You said the V8 is a waste of gas. In fact it goes 4 miles further for every gallon of gas burned on the highway. Now it's about how many wheels are driven? I guess everyone knows AWD uses more gas, but no one (or at least you don't) knows that automatics use more gas, as do bigger cars. You made the claim about mileage and were wrong, it's as simple as that.



Apparently I should spell out the torque too. 323 is greater than 300. Specifically, it is 23 lb-ft greater. While it may be "close to the same" depending on your point of view, there is no circumstance under which 300 is more than 323. If that's not quite clear, then let's pretend this "T" is a pound-foot. Then here's how many more the Impala SS's lame wasteful motor has over the Subie:



T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T



As to maintenance, "everyone knows" that turbo cars typically have more frequent oil change requirements, tend to go through plugs faster, and in general just do not last as long. The turbo itself will likely not last the life of the car, unless you consider the car's life to end whenever the engine/turbo lets go.
 
This thread caused a discussion at work, between the 10 or 15 guys who joined the email poll , not one would buy or recommend a GM product to their friends or family. More importantly when someone added the question would you buy your child a GM product to send them off to college all responded with the lowest possible score ( Absolutely not, would buy a used Toyota first).



Working in avition and traveling quite a bit I get to try GM products, from Impalla's to Cadilacs with as few as 100 miles on them as rentals. I cant begin to tell you the poor quality control I have seen first hand, from seatbelts not connected on a 2005 Cadilac to paint applied over dirt on a 2005 Pontiac., not just one either the entire rental lot was full of them. I cant recall the model of Pontiac but I took pics, hopefuly I have them still and I will post them.



Keep in mind all of us are mid 30's to mid 40"s and making well above avg $, and not one person would consider buying any of the multitude of GM products?



GM wont be around much longer. The shame of it all is they will suck tons of our tax dollars to prop up this inefficient bloated company with no products worth buying simply because the economics of loosing GM jobs and the power of those who killled the company to begin with, the unions.



GM's motto should be " Come on, one more car before you die"



Anyone under 60 buying a GM today ( Trucks excluded ) should have their head examined.
 
FalconGuy said:
GM's motto should be " Come on, one more car before you die"



Anyone under 60 buying a GM today ( Trucks excluded ) should have their head examined.
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Uh ohhhh......





I asked my sister last night if there was *any* domestic brand car that she would buy and her response was that she might consider a truck but none of the cars would even get a second glance. I asked why and she basically said that the cars she sees on the street while still being pretty new don't look to be holding up well.
 
FalconGuy said:
GM wont be around much longer. The shame of it all is they will suck tons of our tax dollars to prop up this inefficient bloated company with no products worth buying simply because the economics of loosing GM jobs and the power of those who killled the company to begin with, the unions.
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While it's a shame people you work with feel that way, that's hardly a very good point. I could ask all the people in a car club what kind of car they'd buy. How good of a random sample would that be?



However, how will GM suck tons of tax dollars? And where does the "inefficient" come from? They have the most efficient plants in North America. I can see that this thread doesn't like to deal in facts, but that is a fact. You might try reading the Harbour Report on plany efficiency.
 
Aurora40 said:
T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T
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If you make the font bigger, does that make the difference even larger? :D



It's a 7.6% difference. That's a bit more useful way to compare the numbers in question . . .



Tort
 
Tort, I've been meaning to ask you. I'd like to get a trunk monkey and was wondering if you knew of anyone that had them on special after Christmas?
 
Since the PT/HHR comments have come up I have this little tidbit to offer:



I've owned a PT Cruiser for two years now (and not a hint of trouble with it, by the way) and recently had the opportunity to rent a new HHR for a full week. While it seemed to be screwed together quite well, rode reasonably well and was fairly quite, the quality of the interior plastics was horrid at best. Plus, for as retro as the exterior is, the interior is just amazingly uninspired. I kept thinking that if you were going to rip off a car that was 5 years old and had sold almost one million units (the PT Cruiser) wouldn't you nitpick the heck out of the thing, find all the little bits that you thought needed improving, and improve them? It looks like Chevrolet did the opposite!! Plus, even though they added 7" to the overall length when compared to the PT, the interior dimensions are almost identical in every regard.



If you give them a blueprint and they still can't hit the mark, then it's no wonder they're in serious trouble.
 
Just to clarify I asked a group of Aircraft Mechanics and Pilots, they all seem to drive a varied group of cars.



I wasn't asking an uninformed group, they have a lot of mechanical knowledge and can see quality or lack thereof for themselves.



The parking lot at work is a pretty mixed lot of BMW/MB/Subbies/Honda's/Nissan's heck even some Kia and Hyundai's. There is a few GM cars, but even those guys said they would never buy another.



Im not making this up, just figured I would pass it along since I found it relevant to the topic. GM has lost the next generation of car buyers, im sorry to be the one to tell you that but if you owned GM stock you figured that out a long time ago.



I know some people have a vested interest in GM, I dont mean to step on anyone's toes. I think the markets valuation of GM proves my point.



Im not the only one saying GM is as good as gone, turn on MSNBC or Bloomberg just about any day and hear them say sell your GM stock, the company is dead, they dont make products people want to buy, unless your giving 5 grand in rebates. Time will tell.....



The sucking of tax dollars will come from the already initiated tax credits GM is asking the government for to avoid more layoffs. A bailout if you would, google it the amounts are staggering. All this so they can stick some new plastic on last decades design and say here is our new 2006 model :confused:
 
SpoiledMan said:
Tort, I've been meaning to ask you. I'd like to get a trunk monkey and was wondering if you knew of anyone that had them on special after Christmas?
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SpoiledMan,



I'm not sure there are "official" trunk monkeys for sale . . . when the joke first started on NASIOC, quite a few guys bought a stuffed monkey (pretty much any toy monkey) and threw it in the trunk. I always thought of it as a good luck thing, and a way to perpetuate the joke . . .



I skimmed the TrunkMonkey website (http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com), and I didn't see any toy stuffed monkeys. They have a lot of other stuff, though (t-shirts, mugs, stickers, etc.).



Tort
 
LOL, I knew it was a joke. ;) There is a car dealership here in the L.A. area that advertises the TM. It's a pretty cool joke.:)
 
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