Foaming, is it just all bubbles?

I should add that I watched a few more vids in the playlist, and some soaps don`t seem to have an added benefit.

I guess I`m playing both sides of the fence on this one - I agree with you that strength / type of LSP plays a huge factor on what gets released during the rinse stage, foam or not. Who knows? maybe that`s why some of the videos show no help from foam, even using products like Megs APC and Super Degreaser, while others show a marked benefit.

Dan said:
Great comparison video. Can`t argue that it does help in that situation. Wonder what the underlying LSP is on the car though, I really never have stuff stick on my car like that,even if I go a month between washes.
Click to expand...
 
I think there`s two distinct types of foaming:

1. Foaming before initial initial rinse
2. Foaming after initial rinse

For #1, in my opinion, you don`t want to use the same shampoo you use in your bucket. You want a dedicated snowfoam product, paint-safe APC, or something like Bug Squash. If you`re using a snowfoam, you want a foam that breaks down and slides off the car, not one that sits on the car like shaving cream forever. You will still follow up with a 2-bucket wash since this is not supposed to be a "touchless" wash.

For #2, the purpose is lubrication for you wash mitt. Here you can foam with the same shampoo you use in your bucket, or foam a panel at a time and wash.

This is assuming you`re using a pressure washer regardless since the topic isn`t pressure washer vs hose. You pick either #1 or #2 or you can combine them in a sequence. I most often use #1 with a prewash spray, as the car is fairly grungy before I wash it. Keep this in context, you`re not going to be soaking the car in Bug Squash or similar if it`s just dusty.

Now if you enjoy foaming your car with shampoo and rinsing it off, I`m not going to argue. I`ve just never found it effective.

To complicate matters more, I look at Accumulator`s boars hair brush technique like a super lsp-safe #1. You get a little more dirt off than rinsing alone but you still follow up with a wash mitt.
 
Keep it up guys, this is what I love about Autopia, the great discussion that lets us see both sides of the coin. The definitely appears to not be a black and white issue.
 
What I`d like to see (noting my internet-cynicism ;) ) is a test on the same vehicle, same level of soiling on the test panels/etc., same shampoo- the variable being between one foaming system that gives long-dwell shaving cream type foam and the other foaming system that`s more watery. I wonder whether the presumably extended dwell time from the shaving cream type is offset by having (again, presumably as I just don`t know) more air/less liquid in that stuff.
 
Mr. A,

I would think the more shaving cream type foam would be more concentrated (i.e., stronger), if this is implying less water used than the more runny scenario you presented. Therefore, the stronger soap would clean better.

I`m just offering a thought - I honestly don`t know myself.

Nick

Accumulator said:
What I`d like to see (noting my internet-cynicism ;) ) is a test on the same vehicle, same level of soiling on the test panels/etc., same shampoo- the variable being between one foaming system that gives long-dwell shaving cream type foam and the other foaming system that`s more watery. I wonder whether the presumably extended dwell time from the shaving cream type is offset by having (again, presumably as I just don`t know) more air/less liquid in that stuff.
Click to expand...
 
Last wash I did on my car I 1st foamed it with Gyeon foam dry then rinsed. Then I foamed it again and washed more like a rinseless with a dozen or so Eagles in my bucket with reset as a shampoo. I was surprised how I could not see the Eagles picking up ant dirt even tho when I started the car was quite dirty since I had put on over 600 miles on it a few days earlier. The roads were quite varied from wet sand and some gravel back roads.

I did film the 2nd foam and rinse just not the actual washing or 1st foam if you are interested. Here is the link to the vid.I think it says more about the CSL/Exo I used for an LSP than poaming tho.

https://youtu.be/9K3klz5wfKg


 
Off topic or on, but is anyone here using any commercial grade foam/soap in your PW that is foam/touchless routine .....

Granted the touchless bays are just that, acid followed by akaline, since this is par for the course on this thread, is anyone using any ~strong~ stuff to employ a touchless routine.

Ahem, cough, cough - jack frost is right around the corner.
 
I think shaving-cream like foam is largely useless since most of it never comes into contact with the paint surface and any contaminants on it -- 95% of the product and its cleaning agents go to waste. Thinner, runnier foam contains lots of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, which is the most versatile solvent in the known universe. If a thick foam somehow beats a runny one, then it is going to be due to the solvents in it, not due to the consistency.
 
`PRND[S said:
;2123920`]I think shaving-cream like foam is largely useless since most of it never comes into contact with the paint surface and any contaminants on it -- 95% of the product and its cleaning agents go to waste. Thinner, runnier foam contains lots of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, which is the most versatile solvent in the known universe. If a thick foam somehow beats a runny one, then it is going to be due to the solvents in it, not due to the consistency.
Click to expand...

This is my understanding too. You want the foam to break down so the detergents are refreshed on the surface and the dirt starts to slide away. If you watch the imported snowfoam products most of them are not super thick. There`s a sweet spot where you get some dwell time but by the time you`re rinsing most of the foam has broken down.
 
nickclark08 said:
Mr. A,

I would think the more shaving cream type foam would be more concentrated (i.e., stronger), if this is implying less water used than the more runny scenario you presented. Therefore, the stronger soap would clean better.

I`m just offering a thought - I honestly don`t know myself.

Nick
Click to expand...

Apples to apples yeah. If you`re taking shampoo and mixing it so weak that it`s barely foaming then throwing in more shampoo makes a stronger mixture. (extreme example, but just for my point)

Now if you`re spraying Meg`s non-acid wheel cleaner on your paint (not that I`d recommend it) i`d expect that to clean more than your strongest shampoo mixture even though there isn`t much foam.

There`s a few variables here: dwell time (foam), concentration (dilution ratio), and detergency (shampoo vs snowfoam vs apc, etc)

All just my opinion though
 
mobiledynamics said:
Off topic or on, but is anyone here using any commercial grade foam/soap in your PW that is foam/touchless routine .....

Granted the touchless bays are just that, acid followed by akaline, since this is par for the course on this thread, is anyone using any ~strong~ stuff to employ a touchless routine.

Ahem, cough, cough - jack frost is right around the corner.
Click to expand...

You know, I`d love to use some sort of acid-base combo for winter time washing. Man if someone could invent an LSP that really sheets and maybe a rinse agent that helps, it would be perfect, except for one fact. That acid-base combo is hell on trim. Most paint seems to do fine, but man, I`ve seen 3-4 year old cars that go through touchless washes frequently, they look like they are 10 years old if you look at all the plastic and especially rubber. You can polish out marring from sloppy winter washing techniques, but replacing trim...ain`t easy.
 
Not really replying to any previous posts... but I have never understood why the manufacturers of detailing products have never marketed a strong prep soap/ solution to the custom/ technical detailing market. I know that there has to be some sort of product that could be slightly tweaked from the car wash products that most manufacturers offer to automated / touchless washes / wash stalls... or even a product from the truck washing market. Seems like this would be low hanging fruit?

From my own experience, an elevated pH wash is not as good as a low pH wash. I have seen more chemical staining on clear from an elevated pH vs. a low pH... so I find it interesting folks will be quick to add APC to a wash solution or spray a diluted APC on paint instead of an acid. Could be a health aspect I guess.

Talking real life... I use some sort of low pH chemical (4- 5 range) on every prep prior to whatever level of machine polishing I am going to perform. It is invaluable around emblems, chrome grilles, etc... Great for addressing water spots too.

Which all my blabbering really comes back to the intentions of the post- Is foaming all bubbles? Well, IMO, that is all it is when using pH neutral, foam solution. If it`s just light dust in the summer months... then a pressure rinse should knock that off. If it`s in the dead of winter with road spray covering the sides of the vehicle... pH neutral foam isn`t doing anything. As someone said... you gotta physically touch the paint with media to get that stuff off. Even my 210-degree hot water pressure washer doesn`t remove winter road spray by its lonesome.
 
Dan said:
You know, I`d love to use some sort of acid-base combo for winter time washing. Man if someone could invent an LSP that really sheets and maybe a rinse agent that helps, it would be perfect, except for one fact. That acid-base combo is hell on trim. Most paint seems to do fine, but man, I`ve seen 3-4 year old cars that go through touchless washes frequently, they look like they are 10 years old if you look at all the plastic and especially rubber. You can polish out marring from sloppy winter washing techniques, but replacing trim...ain`t easy.
Click to expand...

I tend to believe that degraded trim components you are talking about are shabby in their appearance because the owners who frequent touchless/ automated washes are hardly ever hand washing their vehicles. If you don`t ever touch the vehicle to clean it... things are going to bond to any surface. So I would NOT attribute their degradation to the low-pH wash solution solely. Could it be a factor... sure. And that could come from repeated and frequent exposure to low/ high pH chemicals. Next time, look at the emblems. If there is bonded road grime around them AND the trim is looking beat... rest assured it`s not just chemical damage but a lack of actual hand washing. Don`t get me wrong... not advocating a low-pH wash every time the vehicle needs a wash BUT when it comes to getting tight areas of emblems and grilles clean (without removing them and reapplying)... a low pH chemical definitely has it`s place on an infrequent basis.
 
Accumulator said:
Dellinger- It`s not the low-ph you`re after (quite the opposite), but what about AutoInt/ValuGard`s "A"?
Click to expand...

Unsure of what you mean by - `It`s not the low-ph you`re after`?

If Valuard wasn`t drunk on their shipping costs... I might entertain it. Actually had the same conversation with a fellow detailer in my area of the world. We agreed that we could probably replicate, to a degree, the intentions of the `ABC` system with the chemicals we have on hand. Blasphemy? Probably... but I am NOT paying $45 for shipping.
 
Wish want and do are 3 seperate things I suppose Dan....

I always wish to have a strong solution, strong enough to do it all (aka, remove film-touchless). Then it get`s warmer and I forget about it. Then when the jackets come out and I know what`s around the corner, I get into frenzy mode seeing if there`s anything new over the ~pond~ if you wanna call it, that does just that. Well, there`s always other issues like importing, EPA/VOC, etc, etc..

In all fairness, I`m a 48 month leaser. Maybe less sometimes...if I swap. So I may not as adverse or not to the residual effects...

I`ve tested with APC at some mild solutions last year. Did not do much as when I started, it was sorta late in the winter season. The dedicated ~traffic film~ products, I suspect the are much much stronger in concentration...than even APC at full strength
 
Dellinger said:
Not really replying to any previous posts... but I have never understood why the manufacturers of detailing products have never marketed a strong prep soap/ solution to the custom/ technical detailing market. I know that there has to be some sort of product that could be slightly tweaked from the car wash products that most manufacturers offer to automated / touchless washes / wash stalls... or even a product from the truck washing market. Seems like this would be low hanging fruit?

From my own experience, an elevated pH wash is not as good as a low pH wash. I have seen more chemical staining on clear from an elevated pH vs. a low pH... so I find it interesting folks will be quick to add APC to a wash solution or spray a diluted APC on paint instead of an acid. Could be a health aspect I guess.

Talking real life... I use some sort of low pH chemical (4- 5 range) on every prep prior to whatever level of machine polishing I am going to perform. It is invaluable around emblems, chrome grilles, etc... Great for addressing water spots too.

Which all my blabbering really comes back to the intentions of the post- Is foaming all bubbles? Well, IMO, that is all it is when using pH neutral, foam solution. If it`s just light dust in the summer months... then a pressure rinse should knock that off. If it`s in the dead of winter with road spray covering the sides of the vehicle... pH neutral foam isn`t doing anything. As someone said... you gotta physically touch the paint with media to get that stuff off. Even my 210-degree hot water pressure washer doesn`t remove winter road spray by its lonesome.
Click to expand...

I don`t think it`s the high pH alone that`s a problem, I think it`s when caustics are used to create the high pH. Caustics are cheap, and automated touchless car washes are all about $$$. You can still get higher pH products without their use. I basically just look for something that says "paint safe" on the bottle or doesn`t have caustics in the sds. Concentration is a huge factor too. I don`t understand enough chemistry to go further than that.

Totally agree on following up with a hand wash. I never intended for the prefoam/prewash to replace the 2 buckets. IMO regular use of something like a super strong truckwash is only approach for beaters, or wait for it...trucks.
 
DetailZeus said:
I don`t think it`s the high pH alone that`s a problem, I think it`s when caustics are used to create the high pH. Caustics are cheap, and automated touchless car washes are all about $$$. You can still get higher pH products without their use. I basically just look for something that says "paint safe" on the bottle or doesn`t have caustics in the sds. Concentration is a huge factor too. I don`t understand enough chemistry to go further than that.

Totally agree on following up with a hand wash. I never intended for the prefoam/prewash to replace the 2 buckets. IMO regular use of something like a super strong truckwash is only approach for beaters, or wait for it...trucks.
Click to expand...

That`s a fair point. I tend to always assume the folks posting here are using a *newer* APC and not one developed 10+ years ago... concerning caustics APCs. Although I will add even one`s that are said to be safe for exterior paint @ certain dilution ratios are not being entirely truthful. I have tested quite a few and you will still find staining at their recommended dilutions (for painted surfaces)... even those from 1Z/ Nextzett.

Interestingly enough, Feynlab just released a product called Pure Rinseless wash and according to the rep I spoke with, the pH level is supposed to be a little above/ or at 2 and I believe it is a RTU product. Will be trying that out next week or so and testing it in various fashions. Should be interesting.
 
Dellinger said:
Unsure of what you mean by - `It`s not the low-ph you`re after`?
Click to expand...

You`re after something *acidic*, right? The "A" is alkaline.

If Valuard wasn`t drunk on their shipping costs... I might entertain it.... but I am NOT paying $45 for shipping.[/QUOTE]

OK, makes sense :D Wonder if Chrysler/Ford/others still stock it under one of their partnumbers? Dunno about any markups, but you could presumably just buy it at the Parts Counter with no shipping costs (I`d *assume*).
 
This is an interesting topic. I saw a video from Optimum using power clean in their foam cannon and seemed to work well. Has anyone tried this?
 
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