Foam can't totally strip LSP, can it?

E

efnfast

New member
I'm really struggling to explain this one.



Driven my daily driver in snow/slush for the last 2weeks, and since it's warmed up I wanted to wash it. Now it's filthly with salt, slush, etc.... - normally I'd just leave it sit all winter, but, meh, kind of bored today and it was quite warm, so I figured I'd ONR it. Just to jump ahead, I ONR'd the whole vehicle and found next to no marring (just a little bit on the bumper, which may not have even been from the ONR - may have been when I was putting groceries or something into my trunk, who knows). However, hood, roof, doors, etc..., 0 marring.



Sevearl weeks ago I put on 2 layers of blackfire wet diamond (so basically still fresh).



Did the following



- Soaked vehicle down with hand-sprayer and ONR. Water beaded perfectly. (I just wanted to see what would happen with my hand sprayer)



- Pressure washer rinse the vehicle. Water beaded perfectly.



- Foam'd with DP Foam (never used it before and I wanted to try it out)

DP Xtreme Foam Formula High Yield Foaming Auto Shampoo- Foamaster gun car wash



-Let foam dwell 3-4minutes, then rinse off with pressure washer



Now here's where it's unusual - all of a sudden I had almost 0 water beading. The water just sat there like there was no protection on the paint. Also, the foam left all sorts of staining behind on the paint, that ONR couldn't remove ( I ended up soaking the areas with UQD, which did remove the stains).



I can't explain how after the 1st pw rinse I had perfect beading, then after foaming and rinsing the foam off I had almost 0 beading .... the water just sat on the surface, no bead, no sheet, no nothing.



For the hell of it I did my dad's car, same routine minus the foam (hand spray, pw rinse 2x) and it beaded perfectly, so somehow the foam removed 2 coats of blackfire wet diamond? :aww:
 
efnfast- Before somebody says "just because the beading is gone, that doesn't mean anything's wrong with your LSP..", *I* will say that you can tell things aren't the way they were, and aren't the way you want them to be.



So yeah...that shampoo/foam, at that strength, with that dwell time, caused an undesirable change in your LSP and, between that and the staining, you probably shouldn't do that exact process again on your BF-LSPed vehicle.



Hey, things like this often have a more shallow learning curve than we would like, just sounds like you need to tweak things a bit..well, maybe more than just a bit.
 
efnfast said:
I'm really struggling to explain this one.



Driven my daily driver in snow/slush for the last 2weeks, and since it's warmed up I wanted to wash it. Now it's filthly with salt, slush, etc.... - normally I'd just leave it sit all winter, but, meh, kind of bored today and it was quite warm, so I figured I'd ONR it. Just to jump ahead, I ONR'd the whole vehicle and found next to no marring (just a little bit on the bumper, which may not have even been from the ONR - may have been when I was putting groceries or something into my trunk, who knows). However, hood, roof, doors, etc..., 0 marring.



Sevearl weeks ago I put on 2 layers of blackfire wet diamond (so basically still fresh).



Did the following



- Soaked vehicle down with hand-sprayer and ONR. Water beaded perfectly. (I just wanted to see what would happen with my hand sprayer)



- Pressure washer rinse the vehicle. Water beaded perfectly.



- Foam'd with DP Foam (never used it before and I wanted to try it out)

DP Xtreme Foam Formula High Yield Foaming Auto Shampoo- Foamaster gun car wash



-Let foam dwell 3-4minutes, then rinse off with pressure washer



Now here's where it's unusual - all of a sudden I had almost 0 water beading. The water just sat there like there was no protection on the paint. Also, the foam left all sorts of staining behind on the paint, that ONR couldn't remove ( I ended up soaking the areas with UQD, which did remove the stains).



I can't explain how after the 1st pw rinse I had perfect beading, then after foaming and rinsing the foam off I had almost 0 beading .... the water just sat on the surface, no bead, no sheet, no nothing.



For the hell of it I did my dad's car, same routine minus the foam (hand spray, pw rinse 2x) and it beaded perfectly, so somehow the foam removed 2 coats of blackfire wet diamond? :aww:
Click to expand...



The staining that was left behind that ONR couldn't remove is your LSP. :(



I'm very surprised by this, as DP Extreme Foam is a very mild soap, and I've never had it strip any LSP's at all during my foam gun testing of it. Does it still smell like mint?



I still have a few bottles of it. I'll use it for today's washes and see how it fares on newly applied 1000P.
 
Accumulator said:
efnfast- Before somebody says "just because the beading is gone, that doesn't mean anything's wrong with your LSP..", *I* will say that you can tell things aren't the way they were, and aren't the way you want them to be.

.
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Because i Like to doubt everything I see, that's why I did another car with the same regime (minus foam) - if 1 you spray and the water just pools and sits there, and the other it beads, hmmmm, magic 8ball says one has no lsp on it :chuckle:



(as usual) I didn't notice any difference between just pre-rinsing and pre-rinse/foam/rinse, so it's not a huge loss, other than having to re-seal the vehicle once more. :waxing:





SuperBee364 said:
Does it still smell like mint?
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Seems okay - I've only used the bottle once in the past at the beginning of the year (and didn't after that because I found myself wondering 'why the heck did I just waste my time foaming; nothing changed from the pre-rinse really') with a regular (i.e., non-ONR) wash technique.
 
SuperBee364 said:
The staining that was left behind that ONR couldn't remove is your LSP. :(
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Yep. I had a similar experience yesterday. I have been using Werkstat Acrylic almost exclusively for a year or so, and I've also been using a diluted mix of 303 cleaner as a bug/tar cleaner and I've never seen an ill effect from it. The acrylic looks the same after I use it, still beads, etc. Anyway, my dad brought his truck over and I washed it in the same way. It was a mess, with milky white streaks all over the front of the hood where I'd hit it with the 303. QD wouldn't touch it. It was easily polished out, and it turns out he had used Opti-Seal last, which apparently did not hold up to the 303 the way the Werkstat did. In the end, it didn't matter for me because we were planning on stripping it off anyway with Prime Strong, but it sounds like the same thing happened to you.
 
wfedwar said:
Yep. I had a similar experience yesterday. I have been using Werkstat Acrylic almost exclusively for a year or so, and I've also been using a diluted mix of 303 cleaner as a bug/tar cleaner and I've never seen an ill effect from it. The acrylic looks the same after I use it, still beads, etc. Anyway, my dad brought his truck over and I washed it in the same way. It was a mess, with milky white streaks all over the front of the hood where I'd hit it with the 303. QD wouldn't touch it. It was easily polished out, and it turns out he had used Opti-Seal last, which apparently did not hold up to the 303 the way the Werkstat did. In the end, it didn't matter for me because we were planning on stripping it off anyway with Prime Strong, but it sounds like the same thing happened to you.
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Yea - that's exact how I would have described it - milky white streaks.



Very unusual; I did more reading and it's as SB said above - it's a very mild foam. However, it destroyed my lsp everywhere (doors, hood, etc...)



Oh well, it's all blackfire'd up again (fyi, it's A LOT easier to apply and remove blackfire when it's not 0* outside and you can see your own breath, hah!).



edit: btw, oddly enough, it seems any time in detailing I say to myself 'what's the worst that could happen' (in this case, seeing if the foam would take off anymore salt/slush/etc....), something bad usually happens :grinno:
 
wfedwar said:
I have been using Werkstat Acrylic almost exclusively for a year or so, and I've also been using a diluted mix of 303 cleaner as a bug/tar cleaner and I've never seen an ill effect from it. The acrylic looks the same after I use it, still beads, etc. Anyway, my dad brought his truck over and I washed it in the same way. It was a mess, with milky white streaks all over the front of the hood where I'd hit it with the 303. QD wouldn't touch it. It was easily polished out, and it turns out he had used Opti-Seal last, which apparently did not hold up to the 303 the way the Werkstat did.
Click to expand...



I read somewhere that pH matching between LSPs and shampoos has an impact on LSP appearance and longevity. I also recall reading a post from Dr. ? on the Optimum forum (can't remember his last name, but I got the impression that he invented Opti-Seal) saying that acrylics like Werkstat have an acidic ph, while Opti-Seal does not. Perhaps this was the culprit there?
 
khjr said:
I read somewhere that pH matching between LSPs and shampoos has an impact on LSP appearance and longevity. I also recall reading a post from Dr. ? on the Optimum forum (can't remember his last name, but I got the impression that he invented Opti-Seal) saying that acrylics like Werkstat have an acidic ph, while Opti-Seal does not. Perhaps this was the culprit there?
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Could very well be. Dr. G (he formulates the entire Optimum line) knows his stuff
 
My belief is.... the dwelling time of the shampoo was too long for the LSP. Incompatibility

Maybe try washing and rinsing per panel to reduce the surface dwelling time.

Had experienced these on some of my details:)
 
What of the idea that Blackfire Wet Diamond is a durable sealant?



I use CWG all the time, and allow it to dwell for 5+ min in pretty high concentration and have yet to see it strip UPGP nor 1000P nor Collinite. I have to use a pretty high Ph to remove them. While they seem to change in the beading right after the wash, the next wash they seem just fine.



I wonder if DP has a surfactant in it that breaks the suface tension of water for a time period?



I would bet that BWD wouldn't last in a touch less wash drive through if it can't stand up to DP foam.



Interesting problem you have.



Cheers,

GREG
 
Greg Nichols said:
Interesting problem you have.
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Not really - I never use foam, and I never use a touchless wash - in the winter I usually just let the crap sit on the car for 3 or 4mths. Problem solved :grinno:
 
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