Flex vs rotary....

[wannafbody]

No doubt the Flex is a very nice machine but when you can buy a rotary for as low as $20 up to $200 it begs a question as to which is a better choice. The Flex is less likely to do serious damage if misused. The Flex also uses a relatively low rotation speed. A rotary at 1000 rpm with a light cut pad and medium polish will tackle swirls and is relatively safe. Bumping up the rpm and adding a wool pad makes for really serious corrective ability. After using a rotary it's a good idea to follow up with a RO for a perfect hollogram free finish. I see the biggest advantage of the Flex as a one machine operation for moderate defect removal but I don't think it can match the shear corrective ability of a rotary at 2000 rpm. Any Flex users also own a rotary? For a pro I think a rotary would be a better choice provided they already owned a PC, UDM or Cyclo.

 

[eShine]

I have a Hitachi Rotary, A UDM, A PC7424 and a Flex. This weekend I did a wetsand test on my hood of my VW and the Flex worked just as quick as my Hitachi but leaving a completely haze/trailed surface. The Flex corrects just as quick as a rotary but with the operation pro's of a Random Orbital. No steering, grabbing and most of all a clean finish.







So the Flex was put to the final test today. Nothing tests a machine like wetsanding. For those of you who do not wetsand.... you dont know what you are missing! LOL. I hope these pics are ok. I had no stand for the light and no camera tripod! All pics were taken holding the light in one hand, the camera in the other. The last pics with the paint thickness gauge came out too dark and you could not read the disply so I brightened the display in photoshop.



Here is the side I am going to sand. Really it doesnt matter how bad the swirls are because they will come out in 15 seconds using 1500grit paper. The real challange is bringing back the shine. Keep in mind, most color sanding jobs are finished in 2000+ grit. In this test I was able to work out 1500 grit with a foam pad!

Wetsanded with 1500 Grit.......

I then hit it with Menzerna SIP and an Orange pad on speed 5. I was shocked to see the results. In one pass it was near perfect! Just as quick as the rotary but the ease of use only a Random Orbital can provide, There are some permenant chips everywhere (Small spots you can see.

Added one pass of 106ff on a black pad,

Half/half, The tape was thick so there is some flaws on the first inch of the clean area to the right,

So, how much damage did this do???? NONE, (Notice the reflection of the speed limit sign!)

 

[cheapshot]

I just bought the Dewalt VS849, never used a rotary before in my life. I have used the PC for a few years and my hands for a few years also.



I had a few little issues as a first time user, I used SSR2.5 and polishing pad, at 1000-1300RPM and I have to say I was left with very little haze and the swirls were a joke for this machine. i would have been there all day with my PC. I saw a bit of hazing so i used my PC and SSR1 and the paint looked fab. the car was a dark blue otherwise it would be hard to see hazing.

 

[Junebug]

I have a PC and Makita, I thought seriously about the Cyclo then decided against it because of the money - $265 plus $115 for the Edge pads, I know they're cheaper routes but that was the combo I wanted. I'm considering the Flex, but it is a bit pricey. I had the opportunity to work in my friend's bodyshop yesterday, first time using a DeWalt and 3M products. Wow, I'm very impressed with the 3M pads, enough so to go buy a full set and sell or trade my Edge foam pads. Also, with his coaching and the 3M products, I'm started thinking that maybe I need to use my own makita more.

 

[frostydog]

I think you summed it up wannafbody...for a pro who already has a rotary and PC, the Flex would be an investment to increase process rate. Instead of 2 passes (rotary correction then PC finish) for most details you could essentially accomplish both correction and finish with only one pass with the Flex. Cetainly for serious correction I can't imagine the Flex competing with a wool pad rotary at 2000RPM's. I should also note...while I have used a rotary, I do not own one and would not call myself proficient with one.



CMA just started selling the Flex...and while their price isn't the best, they do have one of their usual "personal thoughts" write-ups about the Flex. He seems to feel the Flex has 90% of the correcting ability of a rotary. That's kinda an open-ended statement though...is he comparing orange pad on each, with the rotary at a speed of 1500rpms or a wool pad at 2000rpms???



Regardless, it's not a cheap machine and hopefully it's price is supported over time by years if reliable service. But I guess what it comes down to is...what's the payback for a pro to eliminate a step from X percent of their details?

 

[imported_agentf11]

Does a Flex have forced rotation mode like the Makita BO6040 does? I have a PC7336, Makita BO6040 and Makita 9227. I rarely use my PC anymore. My rotary cannot be replaced but the 6040 saves me a lot of time on some jobs since it does not produce the splatter that my rotary does. Although it does have its negative points like only being able to use a 6 or 6.5" pad.

 

[Junebug]

It's my understanding that the Flex has forced rotation - unlike the B060640, it's on all the time. But of the dozen or so Flex users here and elsewhere, I've yet to read a negative post.

 

[DJ_JonnyV]

Yes, Flex does have forced rotation all the time. At it's highest speed, 6 (also 9600 OPM), the RPM is 480. It is variable from speed 1 thru 6 as well, as is the OPM.

 

[imported_agentf11]

It's my understanding that the Flex has forced rotation - unlike the B060640, it's on all the time. But of the dozen or so Flex users here and elsewhere, I've yet to read a negative post.

I always use my 6040 in FR mode anyway.

 

[WCM3]

Bumping guys. I'm looking to get into more detailing and currently have a UDM. I'm either thinking about stepping up to a rotary or a Flex. The UDM just takes so long to break down the polish. I wait about 4 minutes before it's broken down, and then have to follow-up with a less aggressive polish for another 4 minutes. What are you thoughts? Would I be safe with a rotary if I take it easy. I just want quicker correction that will hopefully not remove paint. ha..



Thanks,

Mike

 

[imported_Bert]

For multiple polishing step jobs, I would say a rotary would be a pro's tool of choice for the first step to correction swirling and then the pro would decide whether or not to use a rotary or a Flex/DA for the next step(s). However, for a one step on paint that holograms easily, I would think the Flex would be the pro's tool of choice. More power than a DA/G110/UDM/Griot/etc. but most likely would not get holograms. That would seem to be the best compromise between wanting to get a high degree of correction but not the need to clean up holograms afterwards.



Also some have said Surbuf pads with M105 are almost making rotaries obsolete. I have never tried Surbuf pads so I can only go by what I have read. Feel free to refute this if you disagree.

 

[WCM3]

For multiple polishing step jobs, I would say a rotary would be a pro's tool of choice for the first step to correction swirling and then the pro would decide whether or not to use a rotary or a Flex/DA for the next step(s). However, for a one step on paint that holograms easily, I would think the Flex would be the pro's tool of choice. More power than a DA/G110/UDM/Griot/etc. but most likely would not get holograms. That would seem to be the best compromise between wanting to get a high degree of correction but not the need to clean up holograms afterwards.



Also some have said Surbuf pads with M105 are almost making rotaries absolete. I have never tried Surbuf pads so I can only go by what I have read. Feel free to refute this if you disagree.

Thanks! When I'm correcting swirling with the UDM, I usually do orange/M105, then follow-up with white/M205. If I'm understanding you correctly, I should be able to do the rotary/orange/M105 to clear up the swirls, then follow-up with the UDM/White/M205 to remove any small marring or holograms. The only things I'm worried about are burning edges/etc, and also trying to quicken up my detailing time. Like I said, I spend about 8-10 minutes on one 2x2 panel alone with the UDM.

 

[JohnKleven]

I have both a rotary polisher, and also flex. The Flex is good for learning, and is good for a one step polish. It however does not correct like a rotary, or even finish like a rotary. If you finish with a rotary polisher with same pad, and same product, it will have a deeper shine with a rotary, and also better correction. A major problem I have with the Flex is that it's not very good for polishing edges, or getting very close around door handles, and places like that. IMHO the Cyclo is not only a better built machine, and operates much smoother, but it also is easier to get around corners, and edges better. All in all, a rotary is definitely better if you know how to use one, and with the wealth of information and high quality products available you should have no problems.





John

 

[lee@glosshaus]

If it is taking you that long to get your polish broken down on a 2'x2' section, something is wrong, most likely with your UDM. For a diminishing polish, it should be a few passes to break it down, then a few more to work and done.



I own a Flex, the latest Griot's 6" and the PC 7424XP and I find reasons to own both the Flex and a DA.



The Flex is awesome, but it is a bit of a handful to use - it wants you to have both hands on it at all times. I love the variable-speed trigger. It wears me out a little more than the PC for some reason. I've had a lot more success staying below speed 4 with polish since that is still in the high range of the DA's in terms of OPM and is the direct drive action with a wider throw than the DA's. Higher speeds are tiring to work and seem to work the polish too fast.



The PC is just plain easy, and it takes 4"/5" backing plates. The Griot's is the same, but seems smoother and is more powerful, though in practice I feel like the XP puts it better to the paint, but whatever. Both are great machines and would be a real upgrade from your UDM.



Net: I own both, love both, keeping both. If you get one, I'd get an XP/Griot's. Great bang for the buck and are excellent with the current pads and polishes out there.

 

[Junebug]

Holy 3 year old thread Batman! Wow, I remember back then - I had a PC and a Makita rotary. I have since added a PCXP, sold the rotary (wish I had it back) bought a Flex (didn't do it for me) and traded it for a Cyclo. I love the Cyclo for final polishing or one steps. I miss the rotary, I was using big 8" pads, I think if I had dropped back to 6" I would have been happier. But, the next polisher I buy will be a Makita BO6040 (I think LOL!)

 

[Accumulator]

I suppose everybody here already knows where I stand on the rotary/Flex/Cyclo/PC/Griot's thing....all have their places and people prefer/need one or another for various reasons.



I *still* can't say that I've ever achieved better gloss via rotary though, maybe it's just the pads/products/paints in question. I understand the idea, and I'm not saying other people are wrong or anything like that....but I'm one awfully discerning guy and I can't see it; I get as good a level of gloss as I've ever seen when I do my final burnishing via Cyclo and I'd expect the same out of my Flex or Griot's.

 

[JohnKleven]

When I have the time, I will perform a test between the cyclo, flex and rotary. I have a gloss meter, and can give real world results. I am willing to bet the rotary leaves the highest gloss, followed by cyclo, then flex in 3rd. I have tested rotary and flex before back to back, and could see a visible difference in gloss. As soon as I have the time, and the perfect black hood I will do a test for everyone. All using the same pads, and products.





John

 

[imported_Bert]

I miss the rotary, I was using big 8" pads, I think if I had dropped back to 6" I would have been happier.

What didn't you like about 8" pads? If I am doing a large flat hood, roof, or other large flat surface, I always reach for the 8 inch pad on the rotary. You can polish alot of acreage in not alot of time with that combo. When you get to tighter areas, I agree, you need to move down to 6".

 

[Accumulator]

When I have the time, I will perform a test between the cyclo, flex and rotary. I have a gloss meter, and can give real world results..

Cool, that should prove interesting! Nice of you to bother doing it.



And it could well be that you'll find a diff on black that I simply cannont discern (with *my* naked eye) on the colors I have (not that *that* would in any way cast aspersions on your results, don't get me wrong here....).



What products do you plan to use, and on what paint?



EDIT: this is all leaving aside the need to be proficient enough with the rotary that one doesn't leave any holograms. Yours truly will never do enough work with one to get to that point; I doubt if I'll do as many corrections over the rest of my life as you'll do next month!

 

[Junebug]

Well Bert, I agree with the big areas - like a hood, but I still like smaller pads - actually 5.5" if I had a choice. I feel that I had better control. I used a technique where you use low RPM's 700-900 with some pressure (as opposed to just the weight of the machine)to start , then move up to higher speeds - 1200 less pressure, then back down to 600 with very light pressure. Back then I used Megs 84 and it worked pretty good.