Ever NOT clay before a polish?

I

imported_doug

New member
At the gentle but insistent prodding of our own Intermezzo I decided to try Klasse. I did the hood of my M5. There were some decent swirls and scratches - so I decided, in the wake of the recent info from Meguiar's about the relative abrasiveness of their stuff, to try some various compounds (including AIO) to prep the hood before doing an AIO + SG application.

Read on in this thread if you care about a comparison between:

Klasse All-In-One (AIO)
Meguiar's Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner
Meguiar's Dual Action Cleaner Polish (DACP)
3M Finesse-IT II
Meguiar's Scratch-X
&
Polishing vs. cutting foam pads

The actual Klasse report will be Part 2.


I put the car in the garage and set up my dual-head 1000w halogen lamp in front of the hood. This really amplifies any defects. Everything described below was done with the PC at speed 6.

I chose 1/4 of the hood, and applied AIO with a polishing pad and the orbital. I worked it until it pretty much disappeared - and then easily buffed out the residue with what was left. I could see it had done a nice job of hiding the minor swirls, but wasn't going to hit the deeper ones.

Next I tried Medallion, also with a polishing pad. The result was no better, and maybe a little worse, than the way the AIO had left it. I think there was some minor new swirl/haze.

Next I tried the DACP. I was surprised that there wasn't more progress, but I can only report a very slight reduction in swirl appearance. The finish it left was fine.

Then I switched to a "cutting" pad - the stouter, yellow foam. Unfortunately I didn't try the Medallion again, but I did retry the DACP. This time I could see more of a difference - conclusion - <strong class='bbc'>cutting pads cut better[/b]! There were still visible scratches and minor swirls (plus more on yet untouched sections of the hood.)

Now, also with cutting pad, I tried the FI-II. This had the biggest effect, removing about 75% of the marks - <strong class='bbc'>clearly better than the other products[/b] for this purpose. I did work it long and hard, and was very pleased that the resulting finish was really good - no detectable haze. I have said in the past you might need to follow FI-II with SMR - but now I'm not sure. Could be the paint (that had been my experience on the black Porsche) or technique. In any case, at least for some paints, you can go straight from FI-II to AIO or wax. One thing about FI-II, though - unlike the others it is a bit "sticky" to buff out. A little detail spray makes this job much easier. It also produces a ton of dust. I used a Calf. Car Duster to remove this with no ill effects.

Having determined the FI-II was the way to go I did the whole hood. As with all the other products I used my standard technique for diminishing-abrasives - with lots of time and heavy pressure to start, followed by lighter pressure to polish after it dries.. I found myself increasing pressure again, then lightening - a few times - just to make sure it was fully broken down.

The hood was now about as good as it was going to get, but I noticed one long, gently curved scratch (about an arm-radius - geee - wonder how that got there?). I broke out a clean foam hand pad and with the the pressure of the side of my finger, rubbed in some Scratch-X along the length of the scratch. I used a lot of pressure at first and a lot of strokes. After buffing I could see the scratch was less noticeable, but there was a little hazing - had to get in exactly the right position to see it. Based upon my earlier AIO test I was confident that AIO would take care of this.

Now - on to Part 2 - AIO + SG.
 
The reason I ask, is it takes a while and is pretty hard work, with minor VISUAL gain.

In order of biggest improvement for least work ( in my mind ):

1) Wash car
2) Wash/Wax car
3) Wash/ 1 step Polish/Wax
4) Wash/ 2 step polish/wax

Just curious, because if I want to help a friend out and shine up their car, I'm considering doing a wash/ 1 step polish/wax without any clay work.

Is their any problem with polishing without doing a clay?
 
Clay bar is a very important step in paint correction and in general. If you choose not to clay, everything that you apply to the paint surface is going on TOP of all kinds of environmental fall out and paint contaminants. Also, the wax/sealant will not stick to the paint as good, causing it not to last as long either.

It does help a little on the visual side of it, the less restriction for the light to bend around the panel, the glossier it will appear. So by removing all of the microscopic grit it just give it a little kick in the butt for gloss.

Another thing is the feeling and sound of your paint. Have you ever felt a 100% clayed, polished, and BFWD'd paint surface? When you feel how slick and smooth and quiet it feels. If you chose not to clay, it would just be a slick gritty feeling surface. and it makes a little noise when you rub on it too.

One other thing, when doing a full paint correction it is VERY important to have the paint clean as possible. When the pad is spinning on top of clean paint, its correcting the paint on a consistent level, but if there are a bunch of crud on the surface still, then it's not getting under the crud, so basically your missing out on a lot of consistent smoothness of the paint. Does that make since?

So overall negatives to NOT claying the paint.

1. Your wax/sealant wont last as long because it didn't properly adhear to the paint surface.

2. Your not achieving the optimum amount of gloss or reflection out of your paint.

3. It wont feel smooth and sexy, it will feel slick and gritty.



It only takes 10-15 min to claybar. it is WAY worth it. I hope this helps?Candy Cane



-Eric
 
Tru_Shine said:
It only takes 10-15 min to claybar. it is WAY worth it. I hope this helps?
-Eric
Click to expand...

Wait, it only takes you 10-15 minutes to clay a car??? I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if it was that quick :)

It usually takes me 1-2 hours, and it is stressfull on my wrist, it gets quite painfull... my wrists are kind of jacked to begin with becaus of carpel tunnel from all this computer work!
 
shizam1 said:
Wait, it only takes you 10-15 minutes to clay a car??? I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if it was that quick :)

It usually takes me 1-2 hours, and it is stressfull on my wrist, it gets quite painfull... my wrists are kind of jacked to begin with becaus of carpel tunnel from all this computer work!
Click to expand...

Well, it depends on what vehicle and how bad it is, but it shouldn't take 1-2 hours. there are different grades of clay bar also. Clay magic Blue fine clay is what I use most of the time. but some times you might have to up to the red. but if you are using the cheap walmart claybar kits then that can cause you more work too. the kits at walmart have soft clay in them, so it doesn't pick up containments like the good clay bar does.


What technique are you using that takes so long?
 
I'm definitely not using WalMart clay.

I have mostly Sonus clay, and have used Mothers as well.

As for technique, I spray the portion of the panel I'm working on with the lube, and go back and forth until it feels smooth, then on to the next spot on that panel after folding the clay.

I might have to go over the same spot 5-10 times sometimes.

My G35 was actually barely in need of it, and that took me 35-40 minutes. But normally a car that really hasn't been cared for, that will take me 1-2 hours easy.
 
I agree that the Claybar process is one of the most important paint preparation steps you can ever do.

I dont think there is any real time limit that can be the only one for every ClayBar process because there are too many variables.

You definitely need a good quality ClayBar, and Nitrile Gloves, and a good ClayBar Lube.

What I do, is wash the vehicle really good, then while its still wet, start the ClayBar process, and listen and feel the bar going over the paint. You can hear it removing the embedded grit, and then that particular spot will feel smooth and the bar will glide almost effortlessly across it.

You will need to pay attention to the color of the claybar, and when it gets too dirty, you need to clean it. PAC sells an excellent ClayBar cleaning product, that works great, especially with their PolyClay Bar.

If you dont have this product, then you need to rinse it, preferably in warmer water, so it softens the bar and makes it easier to knead it, exposing a clean side to continue the process.

I like to start the entire process at the top, and work my way to the bottom because that is where the vehicle usually has the most embedded stuff stuck to the paint.

I continue to do it this way until I am all done, then rinse again, dry, and go over the completely dry panels with a clean, ungloved, dry, hand.
If you missed any area/s, you can get them now, and then its all done.

Sometimes, the ClayBar will mar the paint in spots, and if this happens, you can polish those spots out, or leave them alone, as its up to you.

So in my experience, there is no real time you should be shooting for as so many variables come into play when you start that particular vehicle.

I am sure you are doing fine; I bet the vehicles you Clay'd look better than the ones you choose not to. :)

Sorry about your Carpal Tunnel, I have had a few Surgeries on both my hands this year, and still have one more to go. But the pain and inconvenience was way, way worth it. I have no more carpal tunnel pains at all!
Good Luck!!
Dan F
 
I guess I'll just bite the bullet and do the clay. The gloves are a neat trick to test for smooth paint. Usually I just kept rubbing at a spot until I felt the clay gliding over smoothly.

Someone needs to sell a wrist strap that somehow attaches to the clay to help prevent drops! That would be an instant buy for me :)

[edit] I've just finished looking at the PAC site for any sort of clay bar cleaning kit and can't find one. I didn't even know these existed. Normally, I just keep folding the bar over, and toss it after ever 1-2 cars [/edit]
 
i clay when wash

1.wash

2.while wet clay car car (its very important to keep the paint wet when claying while washing to avoid streaking from your lube)

3.rinse and re foam/ quickly soap down your car

4.final rinse
 
If it takes more than 30 minutes to clay, you're working way too hard. You don't need to apply pressure, just let the clay and the lube do the work. When the clay starts moving freely (stops dragging), move over to the next section.
 
Luster said:
If it takes more than 30 minutes to clay, you're working way too hard. You don't need to apply pressure, just let the clay and the lube do the work. When the clay starts moving freely (stops dragging), move over to the next section.
Click to expand...

That about sums up the process. It's really not hard at all.
 
shizam--to find the claybar cleaning product on PAC, I found it by the following steps, but probably there's an easier way.. But, this will work for you.
1. go to the PAC site
2. scroll down to the From the Pro's section and click on Car Care How To
3. go to the How To create a Wet-Ice over Fire shine and scroll down to the claybar area, and you will find the Blackfire Clay Cleaning and Extender , you can click that cleaning product on and it'll take you to the picture and price for purchase. You'll be all set. softoa..
 
I use clay bar on almost all my jobs but Ive skipped the clay on a couple customers garage queens (that Ive taken care of for years , and knew there wasnt much fallout on)and polished with no problems .

If the cars are already taken care of really well and claybarred regularily you can skip the clay proccess and go straight to polishing .At least IME .

Ive also spent at least an hour claying on exceptionally bad fallout or overspray problems . Even clay magic doesnt get off the worst overspray I have found....
 
Next time I clay I'll time how long it actually takes, and try a lighter touch :). Maybe it's only really taking 45 minutes, but I'm imagining longer!
 
"Ever NOT clay before a polish"

Yes..., kinda. A lot of cars that I detail never really get fall out (week end cruisers that are garage kept). I will still rub clay over the car, just to be safe, but it only takes a couple of minutes.

The best indicator of whether or not you should clay is obviously by touch, if the paint isn't smooth, than a clay bar will be of a great benefit. However if there is contamination and you are going polish the car it is recommended to clay so that the contamination doesn't sheer off and contaminate the polish. If you are just going to wax it is recommended so that the wax and/or sealant can bond properly to the paint.

How long it takes to clay is really dependent on how stubborn the contamination is fixed to the paint. I have had cars that only take 30 minutes to clay but I have also spent almost an hour cleaning rail dust off my wife's rear bumper.

To conclude my ramble, clay if you need to. If claying is hard physically, then consider one of the multiple decon wash systems from either ABC or Finish Kare. Both with make claying that much easier.

Todd
 
detailchick said:
I use clay bar on almost all my jobs but Ive skipped the clay on a couple customers garage queens (that Ive taken care of for years , and knew there wasnt much fallout on)and polished with no problems .

If the cars are already taken care of really well and claybarred regularily you can skip the clay proccess and go straight to polishing .At least IME .

Ive also spent at least an hour claying on exceptionally bad fallout or overspray problems . Even clay magic doesnt get off the worst overspray I have found....
Click to expand...

David Fermani turned me on to using Micro Surface Abrasives 4k grit netted sandpaper for such rough jobs. If the paper is lightly worn than it will leave marring that is less than an aggressive clay bar and do a much faster job.
 
th0001 said:
David Fermani turned me on to using Micro Surface Abrasives 4k grit netted sandpaper for such rough jobs. If the paper is lightly worn than it will leave marring that is less than an aggressive clay bar and do a much faster job.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I have a LOT of experience with over spray (long story). Most recently, I polished a car where 1 quarter panel had been painted and blended. Tape and masking came loose during painting, and this car was a mess. I ttied the red Meguiar's clay, and it would have taken me days to clean up this mess. I then used the 4k Micro Surface paper, and it was leaving a good bit of marring on this particular paint. I ended up taking out the PC, a 4" orange pad, and M105. I "polished" the car (not trying to correct, but for the sole purpose of using the abraisives for removing the overspray), and it removed 90% of it. I then went back over the car with the red Meguiar's clay to remove the rest. Lastly, I used D151 on the PC to finish. Did a good job, and took about 4 hours.

To the original poster, part of being a TID level detailer is to assess the situation, and do the detail accordingly. If you determine claying isn't needed on a garage queen, you can skip. Otherwise, do it.
 
th0001 said:
David Fermani turned me on to using Micro Surface Abrasives 4k grit netted sandpaper for such rough jobs. If the paper is lightly worn than it will leave marring that is less than an aggressive clay bar and do a much faster job.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tod!:smile:


Is that the same as color sanding paper ? And is that single sheets or something you would attach to a DA? Is that something you sell here?
 
Takes me about 30+ minutes to clay my cars...

Easily 1-2 hours on other people's cars.... Usually the worst part of a detail for me.

Maybe I'm working too hard at this?
 
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