ethics of swirl removal/fillers

GregCavi

GregCavi

Pinnacle Detailing Owner
hello everyone! I had an experience with my sisters car yesterday that got me thinking. I washed her car and then did a pass of #80 with polishing pad @1250 on my makita. I taped off half the hood and when i wiped off and peeled the tape it looked awesome. All of the swirls had dissapeared. So I thought I would pull it out in the sun and do an IPA (Iso Profyl Alcohal) Swipe. When i pulled into the sun it was looking very nice and then I did the IPA swipe and bam all the swirls reappeared. I always knew #80 had some fillers but I was stunned on how much.

My question is one of professional detailers ethics. When someone pays for a swirl removal then just using a filler heavy polish woudl technically not be removnig them. That seems that you are cutting corners and not doing what you are paid to do.

The argument came up at meguiars online that by using filler heavy polishes, glazes, and wax with fillers you are just saving paint becuae if you buff to much the paint will get to thin.

So what is everyones thought on this topic? Should filler heavy polishes be used to hide swirls? What do you think about using a polish with fillers after you removal swirls with a low filler polish?

Greg
 
Depends on the swirls. I find that if the swirls are very light either from a previous detail by me or just light from good care I will throw a wax on it. Some of my customers are car crazy and keep it clean, but just don't have the methods for proper swirl removal. Then I would really concentrate on the swirls, since everything else is spotless. Some detailer don't know they are filling in swirls, and it would be a innocent call. But most polishes contain silicone oil filler. It's cheap.....
 
I don't believe in filling swirls on customer cars. If they can't be removed then you shouldn't let the customer leave thinking that you removed them. That is why I don't use glazes or anything else that hides swirls. Give me a nice rubbing compound any day. Hiding swirls may be ok on someones personal car, but if you are being paid to remove swirls, then I think you should do what you can to remove them and let them know what you can't.
 
I think you should give the option to the customer. Let them know that you can remove the marring, but at a cost of the paint thickness. Make sure they realize that the paint can't be compounded indefinitely, and at some point damage will occur, if it is continually compounded. Also make sure they realize that filling doesn't mean invisible at all angles and in all types of light, as well as it needing re-application-which may actually get them in for more regular care.
As long as they *know* the options and consequences, it's their call, so you should do as they decide. However, if you say you removed the marring, when in fact you filled it for the short term, then that would be a poor show of ethics and honesty on your part. (Kind of like if you brought your car to a mechanic with a noisy transmission, and he said he'd fix it, but all he did was put sawdust in there. He *fixed* the noise, but it wasn't done properly. ;) )
 
Big Leegr said:
(Kind of like if you brought your car to a mechanic with a noisy transmission, and he said he'd fix it, but all he did was put sawdust in there. He *fixed* the noise, but it wasn't done properly. ;) )
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Now THAT is an analogy that I can grab onto with both hands. That is exactly how I feel. I'm going to use that in the future if you don't mind.
 
I leave it up to the person whose car I am detailing. Normally I recommend to them that I remove the swirls (if they are totally removable), and that's what they go for. A couple people have said that they don't want their clear diminished, so they opted for fillers knowing the swirls would re-appear. On cars where I can't remove all the flaws, and black cars, I remove what I can than apply a glaze which has fillers (RMG), which I find fills minor flaws but also adds a ton of depth to black paint. Either way, it's up to the car owner.
 
Good points everyone! I take a firm stance on removal rather than hiding of course that has its limits. Keep the ideas coming!

Greg
 
I would invest in a paint thickness gauge. You are a pro, you need to be able to analyze the paint, and form an opinion as to the safeness of your plan of action.

Without knowing the history of the vehicle you are working on, you need to be able to measure it.
 
JeffM said:
I would invest in a paint thickness gauge. You are a pro, you need to be able to analyze the paint, and form an opinion as to the safeness of your plan of action.

Without knowing the history of the vehicle you are working on, you need to be able to measure it.
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Do you know what the ballpark cost on a mil gauge is, and any recommendations on which ones are good?

Also, is it still 1-2 mils base + 3-4 mils clear? And what is the average thickness of Urethane Enamel?
 
Meguiar's #80 is called Speed Glaze, emphasis on the glaze.

I agree with others and feel if you feel your a professional detailer, unlike a detailer like myself who only details cars for good friends and family, then you should be removing the swirls. The argument about saving the paint is a valid one, but your not presenting it to your customer. I'm sure if you gave the option; hide the defects or remove them, all of them would want them removed. I wouldn't be too worried about removing to much paint, just make sure you use the "least aggressive rule" and as long as your not deep polishing these cars every month you should be fine. Its a shame that all the "detailers" at car dealers and other places seem to use lots of products with fillers. They have a nice shine initially but after a little time you can see swirls coming back and hologramming appearing. I just saw a relative's new 05 Jeep Grand Cherokee in black. Absolutely gorgeous truck, too bad it had hologramming everywhere, and this is from a body shop/detail shop that they are friends with and deem him as one of the "best" :mad:

I use to have the mindset that its better to remove then to hide, but after seeing how soft my car's paint is and the fact that its black doesn't help :realmad: , I now would rather fill my car with non abrasive polishes containing fillers than to go crazy polishing and removing all the marring that occurs every couple months :realmad:
 
PEI Detail said:
Do you know what the ballpark cost on a mil gauge is, and any recommendations on which ones are good?

Also, is it still 1-2 mils base + 3-4 mils clear? And what is the average thickness of Urethane Enamel?
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Im not a pro, im not even a good weekend warrior hahaha, so i have no clue.

I think they are about 400 bucks though.
 
i am only 17 so i cant call myself a pro. I dotn ask my customers if they want something removed or hidding. I always remove them. Hiding is jsut a sneaky shortcut and seems a bad judgement to me. As mentioned when you use the least abrasive first you can feel pretty safe.

Greg
 
dont mean to hijack here, but what would you guys say is the best way to remove swirls. i can cover em up all day but dont really know how to get rid of them.
 
There's a loaded question. :D

The only way to remove them is to remove some of the clearcoat around them - how you achieve that is up to you. I don't think anyone here will disagree with me when i say the "best" way is to use some sort of buffer (be it a dual orbital, like a PC, or a rotary) and a polishing compound (a polish with abrasives), together they will strip away a small level of the clear coat and bring it back to a level surface, thus removing swirls and other fine scratches that aren't too deep into the clearcoat.

It can be done by hand, but it's a lot of work and a lot more difficult.

This link might help.

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/how-to.html
 
swirlnuts said:
dont mean to hijack here, but what would you guys say is the best way to remove swirls. i can cover em up all day but dont really know how to get rid of them.
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Use polishes that actually remove swirls, not cover or fill them. Working by machine usually makes it a lot easier. Some polishes off the top of my head that remove not fill are Poorboy's SSRs, Menzerna and Optimum. I'm sure there are more, I just can think of them.
 
HERE is this thread I posted at Meguiars. I have now worked at 3-4 detail shops (my "competitors") and they ALL use low cost, low grade chemicals. From their degreasers all the way to their waxes. Everything sucks. The place I am currently working turns out some xxxxty work, but they do a lot of business. This is where I am torn. I go out and spend every dollar on the best chemicals and tools to do my job, charging a mere $130/car -$190/SUV and here is some "reputable" shop charging $190 on a full reconditioning package for a small car.

I am 18, have been detailing for 2 years. My arsenal of goodies is larger then a real shop? Keep in mind this all has to fit in the back of my 2 dr hatch. Subsequently I have since raised prices to match my competitors, and I have a lot of bragging rights to potential customers. Let me give you an example..

- A lot of shops around here will start off with a shampoo that is high in detergents and unsafe for your paint. Yeah it gets the car clean, but at what expense to the vehicle?

- They use the the same mitts for months on end.

- They also use these mitts to clean your wheels AND your car, same mitt, two jobs.

- They use regular, run of the mill dish towels.

blah blah blah the list goes on and on. It really makes me angry that people don't give me a chance because of my age. Not a lot of people like paying an 18 year old punk $200 to work on their cars. They don't realize all the people working on their cars at these "upscale" detail shops are the same age as me. I need to own my own shop and let people know what a REAL detail is. /END RANT

-Shaun
 
swirlnuts said:
dont mean to hijack here, but what would you guys say is the best way to remove swirls. i can cover em up all day but dont really know how to get rid of them.
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Asking that question is hijacking the thread. Start a new thread if you want it answered. It is not the topic for this thread.
 
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