DON'T MESS with OLD TIMERS

B

buda

New member
The old prospector walked slowly into town with his old pack mule behind him.



The first place he went to was the only saloon in town to wet his dusty and parched throat.



He tied his mule to the hitching rail and began to brush off the dust from his face and clothes.



At that moment a young gunslinger came out of the saloon with a gun in one hand and a bottle of whiskey in the other.



Looking down at the old man he sneered and said, "Hey old man, you ever danced?"



The old prospector looked up at him and quietly said, "No sir, never have danced, never wanted to really."



The gunslinger laughed and said, "Well, old man you are going to dance now," and began shooting at the prospector's feet.



Wisely, not wanting to get his toes shot off, the old man began hopping around like a flea on a hot skillet.



The gunslinger, and the crowd watching, were laughing and enjoying the show.



When his 6 shooter had spent it's last bullet, the gunslinger holstered the gun and turned to re-enter the saloon.



The old man, in the meantime, turned to his pack mule and reached for his double-barreled shotgun and cocked both hammars.



The sound of the cocking hammers was clearly heard in the dry desert air and the crowd became deathly still.



The gunslinger, also heard the cocking hammers , and slowly turned to face the old man looking down at the gapping holes of the shotgun.



With steady hand and even voice, the old man said to the gunslinger, "Son, have you ever kissed a mule's ***?"



Quitely the gunslinger said, "No sir.....but.... I have always wanted to."



MORALE OF THE STORY



+Never be arrogant

+Don't waste ammunition

+Remember, whiskey makes you think you are smarter than you are

+Always, always make sure you know who has the power

+Don't mess with old men, they did not get that way, being stupid



LOVE A STORY WITH A HAPPY ENDING, DON'T YOU





Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
 
Cool read. It's been a while since I read a Wild West story. I think "Know when to take the high road" closely relates to the morals this story illustrates.
 
Glad you both liked the story, I thought it was a good one since there are a great many arrogant people in the detail industry. Some lessons to be learned from the old timer, especially if you have a double-barreled shotgun.



Look for a story on the Science of Drying with regard to carpets in a day or so here on Autopia. You will enjoy it.



Bud Abraham
 
Unfortunately, sometimes arrogant people are attracted to image-enhancing industries amd activities, so beautifying cars would hold their interest, a kind of extension of their inflated egos.:sick1: :nono



That said, I can proudly say, I've encountered very few arrogant folks here. The great majority of us love to help one another and enjoy collectively learning from one another.
 
Great reply!! That is the entire purpose of an industry trade association to give back and to help each other in a formal and unified way.



Bud Abraham
 
buda- Good post, and true in so many areas of endeavor.



On the topic of shooters, also watch out for old guys with old guns that have the finish all worn off of 'em ;) Not quite analogous to polishers I guess, as there are a lot of hacks with many years of experience :think:
 
Bill D said:
Cool read. It's been a while since I read a Wild West story. I think "Know when to take the high road" closely relates to the morals this story illustrates.
Click to expand...



Which is a bit ironic; I'd love it if Bud would explain how making a baseless proclamation that someone doesn't have the "right" to call themselves a professional and then refusing to stand behind his own words counts as "taking the high road." :nono



buda said:
Great reply!! That is the entire purpose of an industry trade association to give back and to help each other in a formal and unified way.



Bud Abraham
Click to expand...



Bud, I hope you can forgive all of us for giving back without paying someone to let us do it. :faint2:
 
Thanks, glad you like the post.



You use a word that interests me, "HACK."



Just what is a hack? A person doing detailing that has no formal detailing training?



Does that just about describe most detailers, including those on this forum?



The way they post about how worthless the IDA certification is, and how they do not someone judging their ability as a detailer, how then did they get "formal" training?



In my experience after 40 years in the business I can say I met less than 10 detailers who had any formal training before getting into the business.



Most learned by "seat of the pants," trial and error, and who says that this really taught them the right way to do anything? Just because they say so?



It is really interesting how these "self-ordained" detailers call themselves professionals.



What is a professional? Somone who says they are a professional?



Look at this question of headlight restoration and sealing when completed the post has gotten numerous responses as to methods of removing the oxidation and of sealling it. Which is correct? Which will not damage the polycarbonate lens?



There is no standard, the right way is the way the guy that does it says it is. What an industry.



Washing cars with Dawn dishwashing detergent.



Shampooing carpets with engine degreaser.



Shampooing carpets without an extractor



Correcting paint finish problems without a rotary buffer or drum-style buffer.



Detailers who do not have a clue as to the thickness of clear-coat?



Detailers who wet sand factory clear coats.



Detailers who have no idea what analine leather is; what nubuck leather is; what protected leather is and who do not know what type is used in cars and how to clean and treat it.



Only through an organized formal training program can one be sure that a detailer knows what they are doing



Just a few well intentioned thoughts



Bud Abraham
 
You do not give back to an industry by running your business everyday and sitting in front of your computer making posts.



If you do not understand what a trade association is and why they exist there is not much I can say.



Is it not strange to you that every industry has it's own trade assocation, even small industries: window tinters; paintless dent repairs specialists; restylers; glass repair; upholstery to name a few.



There is one I do believe that does not have a trade association, however, "shoe shiners."



Bud Abraham
 
Standards and formal training are always positive and no doubt will aid your industry but just to be clear, numerous folks on this forum do refrain from the practices you mention and are educated on the topics you mentioned.
 
buda said:
You use a word that interests me, "HACK."



Just what is a hack? A person doing detailing that has no formal detailing training?
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To me, a "hack" is anybody who does lousy work. I know plenty of people with *zero* formal training who do superlative work (in many different fields), so to me it's not about how they attained their abilities, but rather that they can do the work to a high standard.



Does that just about describe most detailers, including those on this forum?
Click to expand...



I wouldn't know as I have no way to (fairly) judge their work....especially on the internet where everybody is ten feet tall and bulletproof ;)



I will say that I find most "professionals", in most fields, to be mediocre at best. The true "as good as it gets" people are few and far between.



What is a professional? Somone who says they are a professional?
Click to expand...



IMO (and others hold different opinions), a "professional" is somebody who does something as a profession, i.e., as their primary source of income. So IMO a "professional" and an "expert" can be two different things.



Washing cars with Dawn dishwashing detergent.
Click to expand...



Any specific reason why you'd consider Dawn worse than, say....ValuGard's "A" or FK1119? Not to open up the endless Dawn-centric controversies or anything :nervous:



Correcting paint finish problems without a rotary buffer or drum-style buffer.
Click to expand...



I'll take issue with that one :think: I've used both rotaries and RO/DA polishers, and I do some tight spots by hand; in my book abrasion is abrasion no matter what machine/hand is moving the abrasive medium. People were polishing all sorts of stuff (including marble, granite, lacquer, etc.) just fine long before there were *any* types of polishing machines.



Only through an organized formal training program can one be sure that a detailer knows what they are doing
Click to expand...



Just as a good-natured, if perhaps cynical :boink: I'll say that all "organized, formal training programs" are not created equal; I often run into this in fields other than detailing.
 
That may be true, what you say but how do we know that? How do we know what education they have? If they have a Cerfiticate that says they passed tests that verify their knowledge we are more certain.



Is that not why doctors; dentists; acupunturists. chiropractors; mechanics (good mechanics) collision repair specialists all hang their certificates on the walls of their offices and waiting rooms.



You guys really crack me up trying to justify your positions of not wanting to have some type of certification by saying, "what does a certificate prove?"



It proves that one can read and take a test and pass it.



And, we all know there is a lot more to detailing a vehicle properly than knowing how to put wax on and take it off. More than throwing a bunch of water and shampoo on the carpets and scrub, scrub, scrubbing.



So somewhere along the way there has to be some way to separate the "hacks" from the "professionals."



And who has the right to use the term, "professional?"



What gives him/her that right? Just because they think they know what they are doing?



I have yet to have any detailer willing to take a written test we have put together for our students, pass it.



Bud Abraham
 
buda- Heh heh, I won't :argue "certification" in general lest I be a hypocrite; I take my professional certification as a Security Driver very seriously (even though I firmly express my opinion that I'm an "expert" as opposed to a "professional" because I don't do it for a living).



But I think the "objective standards" aspect of certification as a detailer might be a little problematic compared to areas where it's simply a matter of attaining a certain score on some kind of test (be that test written, kinesthetic, or both., as appropriate to the subject in question). In driving for instance, it's determined what is physically possible (incredible about of math, geometry, physics, etc. involved in that, BTW) and then the person's performance behind the wheel is judged against that standard;you can do it or you can't, pass/fail.



What if a person can pass the written "detailing exam" but can't produce the results on an actual car? What about an illiterate (or dyslexic) person who can do incredibly good details?



Not trying to be :argue so I hope I'm not coming across like a [jerk], I just find the topic interesting.
 
Bud-



My opinion here...



You come across as being really ticked off at something. :mad2:

Did I miss a post or a thread that led to this? :yield:



I suppose there are plenty of ways to go about enticing someone to sign up, or debate, or learn.



From what I know, you are a highly respected, educated, informative, and knowledgeable guy. Something just ain't right, or I am way off base here.



This is a forum with beginners and experts, and sometimes guys become better and better through experience, trial and error, or training. Not all of them intended to detail for a living, but they find out they can do the work, satisfy customers, pocket a few bucks... and have fun!



Personally, I've had no formal training, no college education, and only a few people ever went out of their way to teach me anything about detailing, detailing techniques, or the chemistry aspect of detailing products. The guys that did help me... I remember them well.



Mostly, I learned by putting in the time, rationalizing, and looking stuff up. In addition, I know the time that guys like Jason Rose put into developing products. So, I have quite a bit of trust in guys like him, and if he was involved in the development of a product... it holds a lot of weight with me.



To pass it on so to speak, I try to help out whenever I can via e-mails, phone conversations, trainings, and by writing about things on various detailing forums. A lot of the written stuff barely gets read or, but at least its available if somebody looks hard enough.



At this point, I'm pretty tapped out on useful information, so help a fellow detailer out!



Why not start a thread that allows you to ask a question, and let the forum guys respond?

Once there's enough input, you can then relay the proper information or discuss the technical stuff.



Seems that once a guy realizes how much he doesn't know, he might then be more apt to sign up or at least look into what an organization or class has to offer.



:plane: Toodle-oo!
 
Bud is always stirring the pot because not everyone agress with needing the IDA. drop it man, this post has nothing to do with anything other than that point!



oh and I know a certain "old timer" who produces terrible work on all the cars he works on and thinks its the best out there and no one comes close to him...I've fixed a couple of his cars he previously worked on!!! he even was "certified and trains other people" WHAT A JOKE!
 
post up your test Bud, let everyone take it who wants to!



P.S., who are you anyway? who taught you and got you certified? who certified them? chances are, they are MUCH older and "old school" which has very little useful experience to me since the "old-school" way was/is wrong!
 
If you want a Portland detailer contact Tom Rennie of Autobella in Portland, Oregon he is also, perish the thought, a member of the IDA Board of Directors and his contact info can be located on the IDA website Home - The International Detailing Association under Board of Directors.



Bud Abraham



PS: Accumulator, I typed out a response to your email and it did not post. A lot of work for an older guy. Will have to do it again when I have more time.
 
Bud,



Who is to say that an bull can't learn from a young bull? You make it seem like 40 years of experiance and you know it all. I'm not even gonna touch that. Theres no doubt that you have knowledge and know how. Remember to keep a open mind and remain humble. I may not be the best polisher out there, but this I wll tell you. There is more then one way to level, refine, and polish paint.



Barry Theal
 
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