Does layering wax and sealants really make much of a difference?

Acura_RL said:
I might be off the wall when I say this, but I don't believe pure carnuba wax can be layered. Reason? Because there really is no product out there that simply "pure" carnuba. All of them contain solvents that make the application easier for the user. Those solvents will be instrumental in disrupting the first layer of wax and reliquifying it. So in the end you're pushing around the first layer.



Any thoughts on this?
Those of you that have been in the military may have learned how to “spit shineâ€� your boots. Since this can turn even rough leather into a mirror-like surface I thought that I’d give it a try on my black paint. Got a box of cotton balls, a cup of distilled water, a can of Souverän, and started on a one square foot test area. After about an hours work I broke out the obsession light and compared my test area to the multi-layered Zaino surrounding it. Just as reflective, but with a lot of added depth! Just to make sure, I added a single layer of wax to an adjacent area. Compared to the Zaino there was some increase in depth and a very little loss of reflectivity. Compared to the spit shined area the wax had far less depth.



This seemed great, but there was no way that I was going to even think about spending an hour per square foot to do the entire car! I’m obsessed, but not that much - - so it’s back to experimenting.



I tried several methods of mimicking the spit shine technique using Souverän, S100, P21S, and two types of Zymöl. I found that Zymöl didn’t work as well as the others which did work well, and that S100/P21S gave a slightly different appearance than Souverän.



The technique that worked best was to use a 4-5� square of MF as the applicator and a small bottle of distilled water for spritzing. Very little wax on the applicator - just enough to barely cover a two square foot area very thinly. Once that area has wax on it I don’t stop with the applicator, I continue wiping (just like applying with very light pressure, but no additional wax) until the wax has almost totally disappeared. This only takes maybe 15-20 seconds. Move the next area and do the same. After a couple of more areas, then I go back to the first area, wipe with a clean MF towel and repeat the application procedure. It seems to work best when only three layers are applied to each area in one day, but the next day I can apply another three layers successfully.



My opinion about what is happening (and this used to be a topic of discussion when part of my job was to keep my boots spit shinned) is that when you apply a very small amount of wax the amount of solvent involved isn’t enough to soften the underlying hardened wax and that the water must somehow help to “wash out� the solvents.



Kiwi shoe polish, which was unquestionably the best for shoes and boots, has a lot more solvents than good quality car wax and it certainly works well. When working with boots it was also found that if you applied a lot of layers when first starting there was a good chance that some of the wax might flake off where the leather flexed. It was by far better to only do a few layers the first few cycles. After a few cycles of this then it was okay to go to many more layers at one time. Even then there would be occasional flaking in some areas. On older boots that had a year or two of being spit shinned every couple of day the flakes would be quite thick!



For the past 3-4 weeks I’ve been working my way around my roadster working on one area (half hood, fender, quarter panel, etc.) at a time, stripping all sealants, dealing with any marring, adding 3-4 layers of a synthetic (Zaino, Platinum, Poorboy's EX, Klasse), and then topping with various combinations of P21S/S100 or Souverän. The jury’s still out on which synthetic and which combination of carnauba are the best for me on my Jet Black paint, but here are my initial observations.



The thin layers of carnauba add a lot of depth to the synthetics (except the Klasse which will get its first wax topping today) and little or no reflectivity is lost. The carnauba is much less susceptible to micro-marring than bare Zaino or Klasse. The surface hardness is about equal to bare Klasse, a little less that bare Zaino - as evidence by ease of bug removal. The carnauba hides underlying marring that the synthetics are unable to hide.



As always, YMMV!
 
RJJ- I've played around with topping/not topping SG on silver. There IS an improvement when you top, but I've still quit doing it. It just didnt' make THAT big a difference on silver, and on THOSE vehicles, I'd rather be able to just spot-clay and lay on more SG. Some silvers looks fine with just SG, others really don't. If YOU like the way the cars look now, don't feel that you need to top them.



Acura_RL- Yeah, this can be one contentious topic. I DON'T agree with you, but MANY people do. Hey, no problem. Honestly, I sorta think that people believe what they're gonna believe where this is concerned, but here's MY experience. BTW, I've posted this before, so I hope no one minds seeing it again (I'll be brief). I used Malm's liquid (a "straight carnauba", no cleaners) on the XJS for quite a while. At that time, the car never got dirty. Every time I drove it (rarely), I'd wash it, put on another coat of wax, and cover it. Eventually, the silver paint looked "tarnished". I cleaned it down to fresh paint and found I was removing yellowish wax build-up. Switched to less-frequent coats of Souveran (now P21S), no more build-up, no more "tarnished" look.



These days, cars that get multiple coats of Collinite or 3M Show Car Paste (maybe a week apart) keep beading far longer than they did with just one coat. Again, just my experience, but it's a quite dramatic difference. e.g., I haven't had to rewax the Volvo since before the holidays (outside 24/7).



Edit: What Nick said about spit-shining footwear :xyxthumbs Even for us civilians. First learned this from a shoe-shine guy who could put a shine on shoes that was just astonishing. BTW, that guy really appreciated how my cars looked.
 
I guess it all depends on the product and the way it's applied. I use Meg's #26 which I'm happy with. Also, I apply light to medium pressure to evenly distribute the product and make sure there's a thin layer.



I just tend to think that the reason why the appearance may improve is because a second application may cover certain areas that were missed with the first application.



My opinion about what is happening (and this used to be a topic of discussion when part of my job was to keep my boots spit shinned) is that when you apply a very small amount of wax the amount of solvent involved isn’t enough to soften the underlying hardened wax and that the water must somehow help to “wash out� the solvents.



I think letting the wax cure may be a necessary step as well. Yesterday after waxing my car, I came back to test the slickness and didn't notice much. This morning I went back outside, and the slicknes was noticeably there. I don't know if my hands were dryer or what, but I did wash and dry my hands real well yesterday.



I think what I'll do is give the car another day or two and try to reapply a second coat of #26.



My main concern is durability. Durability comes first, then appearance. My car is outdoors almost entirely, so I want the best protection against the harsh environment and baking sun--which we get a lot of in Florida.
 
Wow, interesting posts people. :)



Nick, since I have no idea how to spit shine anything, what do you do with the spray bottle of water and how much do you use of that?



Related to the topic of trying to "spit shine" your car another trick I heard used was to fill a spray bottle with ice and water and then, after waxing and buffing, to spray and wipe down the car with the ice cold water. The poster(s) claimed this helped to "set" or cure the wax.... I'm a bit hazy on the details of this now, but I imagine it's some kind of related principle.
 
Brian, when spit shinning shoes you keep the cotton ball wet enough that it leaves tiny beads of water on the shoes as you’re rubbing the wax on/off. On the car I lightly mist the work area just enough to keep a very small amount of water beads present.



The cold water thing is similar. I’ll put some ice water in my mister the next time that I add more carnauba. Thanks for the idea!
 
That spit shining technique sounds a little tedious.



I think after you put enough coats of a fine carnuba, e.g. S100, especially in the summer heat, the wax will even out and cure to a brillaint shine.
 
You may be right about the heat thing. Dunno since I haven't the car hasn't been out in Arizona type sun.



It’s been my experience that when adding multiple “normal� layers of carnauba you do get more depth, but at a loss of reflectivity and with many waxes an increasing yellowing.



Doing the ultra-thin layering and allowing each couple of layers to cure and harden before adding another layer maintains almost all of the reflectivity and adds depth without yellowing.



BTW, I’ve had the best luck with P21S, Souverän, and S100 pastes.
 
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