Could it be having too high of expection about PI-III 5937 ?

C

chip douglas

New member
Did my girlfriend's ride today........thorough washing ---> claying--------> then 3M's 05937 machine glaze, which is supposed to produce high gloss, and remove swirls.



Well, for one, it did remove the swirl marks, it did a real good job taking swirls out. I looked with a projector kind of lamp 10 minutes ago as it is drak outside, and no swilrs in sight....wow !



Now about the shine, hum ohw can i put it.....let's just say i expected high gloss and got medium gloss out of using 05937, i used every methods, went up and down using the rotary(not DA) left right, low speed, then higher speed, light pressure then no pressure, all of em methods i ve tried, but in vain, the finish was at it s best the first time, not matter what i did afterwards........even tried to spritz the pad and not do it. Of course, no sealants have been applied to it yet, but still im a tad disapointed......my hoped were way high, prolly too high in fact lol.





Do any of you know of a product that gives a MUCH better gloss then 05937? Or it s pretty much the best i can get in polishing products ?Notice, i said do you know of a product that produce a MUCH better gloss, as if there s one that is just a wee bit shinieri guess i'll stick with 3M.



Also i noticed the buffer literally glides on the surface using the product(prolly as many others in fact), i mena as long as there is enough to buff, then it gets squirrely, and anyway it s time to stop buffing as it flashed off. I didnt find it caked that much, as i use it sparingly.



i forgot to say i first drench the pad with water, wrung it out, then proceeded to polishing, this way i find there s an even distribution of polish on the pad, instead of it absorbing all of the polish in just one spot, thus the rest of the pad is dry.



P.S. does 39009 yields a superior shine os opposed to 5937 ?
 
OK, so if you used the PIII-MG and are going to wax, get the PIII-FG as it contains more oils and carnuba for a wet looking finish. Then, wax with your favorite wax.



Or, you could go with Imperial HG as well, but if doing it by machine, say with the Perfect-It line.



Regards,

Deanski
 
Deanski, i had in mind to try the PI-3 FG, as some say the looks is one that kill....does it produce that beautiful a finish ?



What i want to do is apply zaino, as i have brand new bottles on the garage shelf..........i guess i could use the PI-3 FG after i put the Z.......is this correct ?



P.S. i guess i was too demanding of the 5937...........the finish looks good but nothing spectacular...............oh come to think of it, does the FG last a good 3-4 months or is it under expectation ?



Best regards:up
 
STOP! Do NOT use the PIII-FG if you are going to Zaino! Since it has carnuba, it will be an extra effort to remove it.



You may want to go with Imperial HG or Megs #3 MG or Hand Glaze. Stay away from Megs #7, as this is great for wax, but a real problem with Zaino due to the high oil content. Yes, finish will look wet as hell. That's the oils in #7!



Since you're going the Zaino route, I used Menzerna FP with a black finish pad, as I wanted to burnish the finish with just the polish working it, not the pad. You can also look into other fine polishes/glazes, but be aware of what's in them.



GEPC also is a great finishing polish as well.



3M IHG is one of the better finish glazes, and can be used with a machine to add more depth as it breaks down. So long as any glaze is without wax is OK as you will be removing the oils from all the polishing anyway prior to Zaino. One of two ways, Dawn wash and Z7 wash or alcohol/water spray.



If you have the new Z5 (white bottle, Z5 color is bananna looking) you may run into streaks when you remove it. If so, mix up some Z7 and water: 1/2 cap Z7 to 12oz of water (distilled is best) in a spray bottle. Spray the effected area and wipe off. No more streak. Make sure prior to ZFX/Z5 you do a quick QD with Z6, then use Z6 between each coat to aid in gloss development. Spray a light amount on the applicator as well.



Let me know if you have anymore questions.



Regards,

Deanski
 
:o well, i have Z6,Z2,Z7,ZFX..,,,,,i didnt want Z5 as i prefer to emove them swirls then hide(personal preference), i must say that 5937 impressed me at removing swirls/micro marring.



I do have questions, which for some are related to the current topic and others not :1. 5941 FG from 3m's says it doesnt contain abrasives, yet it contains aluminum silicate clay, aluminum oxide, not sure but this looks like abrasive to me :D What's more their machine glaze which i have and use, contains the latter ingredients, so if 3M's claim their 5941 FG doesnt contain any abrasive, they either are lying to us, or fooling themselves lol.





Oh come to think of it, i got the new zaino, if there's such a thing......the Z2 bottle content is pink colored. Now, about IHG can you tell me more ? Does it contain abrasives ? What kind of finish does it produce ? I ask cause i dont like the finish 5937 machine glaze gave me, so i'd like something milder as a polish to get the greatest of mirror like finish before applying Z.





Let me know more please :wavey
 
Here is the link to all the 3M polish/glaze products both machine and hand.



3M Polishes



One thing, 3M IHG does contain "fillers", so actually, not great for Zaino as you strip the oils, so will your fillers go as well.



I've mostly use 3M and still do, but find other products that may augment the 3M well. The Menzerna FP did the job for me. It was a bit of a learning curve with it, but once I got it to break down right, it gave me a mirror shine. Go look at my Lexus SC430: My SC430 pics



This was done with 3M PIII-MG and Menzerna FP along with 3 coats of Z5 and 3 coats Z2.



Regards,

Deanski
 
First your car does look awesome, that s for sure :xyxthumbs....second do you see eye to eye with me on the fact that FG 5941 does contain some light abrasives ?



Ever used 5941 ? Does 5937 machine glaze alone give you an incredible finish or it is kind of a sedate one ?
 
Yes, I've used 5941 FG, but only with vehicles getting wax and not sealants. Yes it does add to the gloss level, and mirror looking effect, but it's due to the oils and wax in it. It does have light abrasives in it to burnish the finish.



The PIII-MG gave me a good gloss, not too glossy, so that's why I stepped down to Menzerna FP with the finish pad. I may have had close to same results with the MG if I used the finish pad after all regular working with a polishing pad. Need to try that.



The PIII-MG did need more time to break down for that good gloss. Prior, I did not get it to fully break down, and got maybe what you're seeing. I use both a Makita 9227C rotary (RO-ZILLA) and a PC. I find the Makita did the best removing the swirls, but the PC did a better job on the gloss. Maybe the PIII-MG was getting too hot with the rotary, another theory I need to check, but that's what I think happened. Finishing, I go with a PC due to it's action and lack of heat build-up. For glazing I find it best.



Megs #3 MG is a good glaze and their hand glaze is very nice as well.



It took me time and materials to find a good combo after 3M. Hell, I used to use good 'ol Liquid Ebony as this was one hell of a good glaze, but now, there are so many products, it's a trial-and-error type of work now.



Some guys have good results with the Clearkote VM. I also tried some of the Auto Magic stuff with good results, but mostly gravitate back to 3M, since I'm used to bodyshop type products in the past. The Megs stuff was hitting the area markets back then. I used in the detailer line: Acid Rain Correction Cream, Clearcoat Conditioner and good old #26. Their sealant #20 was loaded with solvents, which cleaned the finish to assist it in bonding, but was streaking like mad, never got it to bond right. They did slightly change it, as I have a sample. However, I still use Zaino on the SC430 as it gave consistant results. I used Z5 to fill any remaining spider marks that are hard to see under normal light, but jump out at you under Halogen lamps.



Maybe try the 3M PIII-MG with a finish pad or 3M waffel foam pad if you're still using the rotary, and up the speed with very light pressure to see if it burnishes.



Regards,

Deanski
 
I use the MG with 3M's waffle pad(convoluted) 5725 foam polishing pad, i soak the pad in water first, wrung it out, spin it a bit to remove still more water, apply compound in circle to the pad, the kind of dab it onto the 2x2 square feet area i'll be buffing, then start to buff slowly up and down and sometimes left to right, i dont move the buffer real fast, i tend to go slow to let it burnish the surface, i do not apply much pressure, i tend to let the machine work under it s own weight..... and buff till the surface squeaks, then i immediately stop polishing.





Would you be so kind as to describing your methods with 5937 ? I guess it would help me acheive even better results.





P.S. i found that the MG works in VERY fast............i wonder if it s better to spritz the pad or not to ? Spritzing seemst o help even the distribution of polish onto the pad.
 
Well, did mostly what you did. However, I switched to a PC after I did one pass on the car. The PC had a white pad (polishing) and did not add water this time.



Ran PC to about 4, in random pattern until it broke down.



Pads are Lake County pads.



Almost sounds as if the rotary is working the glaze too hard and heating up too fast if it does not gloss after wipe. Could be the pad. Try a finish pad w/o water, or very light spray. I find the 3M pads can cause this effect of not enough gloss. You may want to try a Lake County pad or similar pad.



Never had this problem with 5937 not developing a good gloss. Try a small sample by hand over same area you just did the the rotary and see if it improves the gloss next to the rest of the rotary applied area. If it does, it's the pad that may be your problem. So long as the pad was new or cleaned, it should not end with lack of gloss. I'd try a simple white polish pad next.



This is indeed strange, and I'd be interested to see what 3M says on this one. I'm still leaning to hand application to see if it resolved the lack of gloss.



Who knows, maybe the product was contaminated, but it's a long shot!



Let me know how you do....



Regards,

Deanski
 
I use a PC and I liked the results I got with PI III MG .However, like Deanski, I also applied Menzerna FP, then GEPC, after that I used AIO and SG, I'm quite happy with the results I got on my Caddy.
 
Deanski, i'll sure keep you posted on this. I'll try by hand as you suggested to see if it improves gloss..........but maybe i want too much gloss lol...........im an extremist you know ;) The gloss i get is much like the one of a waxed car, but cheap wax that is, not carnauba.



The pad is brand new, so either it is the 3M pad that is the problem or im too demanding lol, and god knows i am demanding.



P.S. do you keep the pad flat on the surface, or tilt it slightly ?..........as to me i try to keep it as flat as i can, but round doors, fenders and such areas, i have to break the rules and i go very lightly as the paint is thinner on edges........i still do them but lightly and work with angles of curved areas.......i guess it s ok to do this.



Take care :xyxthumbs
 
Chip,



On a rotary, you need to keep the pad on a slight tilt or angle and do not want it to lay flat, unless you really want to burn a finish. Too much heat can be generated on a large area very fast. The only time I lay it flat is to distribute the polish on the finish on a very low speed, then adjust speed with it on an angle.



It's the opposite with a PC. Flat as possible.



I just may be the pad. Give the hand application a try right after you did the area prior with the rotary. At least you can judge it better this way.



It's best to also work your way down in polishes. After DACP, PIII-MG, then Menzerna-FP I may use a hand glaze, but that's if I feel that the FP did not produce enough mirror reflection, which is rare.

Menzerna can be a PITA to remove, but it still does a nice job.



You're quite welcome, and hope to hear some good results!



Regards,

Deanski
 
Deanski, very confusing this pad angle thingy cause lots of people(most i think) sy it should be kept as flat as possible to prevent formation of swirls, but maybe it s better to slightly tilt it, at least i feel it is easier this way.



I'll keep you posted, and it s nice of you to help me buddy, i appreciate that :xyxthumbs
 
Chip,



Here is a quick article on rotary use and explains why we tilt the pad.



Swirl removing via rotary



Also, on 3M, here is a Q/A remark on haze or lack of gloss:



Q: After polishing, there appear to be hazy marks on the paintwork - especially on dark colours - when the vehicle is put out in sunlight. What’s the cause, and how can I avoid it?



A: You’re getting the hologram effect. This is the result of a polishing action which is too regular, by which the microscopic scratches create an ‘image’ which is exaggerated in bright sunlight. The cure is to randomise the action of the final polishing step.

After the normal rotary polishing step use 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-itâ„¢ III Machine Polish 09376 with a 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-itâ„¢ Foam Polishing Pad 09378 on a coarse action D/A sander. This breaks up any regular polishing pattern and produces a better, mark-free finish.



Regards,

Deanski
 
Deanski, thanks for the tips........i'll go read it right now, and i'll be experimenting with what you told me tomorrow...........i can't wait :D
 
I have taken a slightly different tack than you and have used this for a dozen years. I have experimented with more than 10-12 different combinations since (any continue to do so)but my combination of the following works best for me for 99% of paint damage:



3M Perfect It Rubbing Compound Medium Cut

3M Perfect It Rubbing Compound Fine Cut

3M Finesse It II MG

3M Perfect It Swirl Mark Remover(s)

....simple, effective.



On dark cars I might choose the paint cleanser du jour or 3M Imperial Hand Glaze/Machine Glaze if necessary to remove any final hazing. This also depends upon the wax/sealant to be used. If any bonding issues are a concern, like with Zaino, I simply do a "potent" Z7 wash. Dawn washing is HIGHLY overrated and often unecessary.



I find some of the Perfect It III line a little too "watered down" so to speak, in the sense that there is a lot of overlap in product grit and purpose.



Pad choice is important and you can move each product "up or down" in cutting power with the proper pad, pad speed and technique.



There is a lot of stuff out there that can work, and lots of different combinations. We all settle on what works for us, I guess.
 
I have those articles numerous time so far, and must say they re excellent as to how-to, yet the tilting of the pad is prolly a personal preference, as i've heard some tilt it, some don't, but the count of people saying they keep it flat most of the time, outnumbers the one of people who tilt it.



I'm far from saying your method is faulty, rather i'm telling you what others here and on other forums have told me as yet, but i'm only a beginner with the rotary, so i know i have a lot to learn on it's usage through practice. People so far have told me that if one tilts the pad too much it will create more swirl marks, however, recessed areas, and tight spots require you to tilt the pad some, otherwise there s no way for you to do these areas, at least i havent found a way ;)



I'll fess up that so far i have tilted the pad on many occasions with success.



couple of questions i got : 1. how do you maneuvre on fenders, and on areas such as those ? As to me, i don't insist too much yet i make a pass or two, using almost no pressure, and working with angles, which means that i move with the curves tilting the pad.



2. one mistake i think i may be making is, as i told you i soak the pad with water, wring it out, pour a quarter size product onto the surface, then spead it with the machine off, on all of the surface i will be buffing........i find it leaves a real tiny film on the surface to be buffed this way, and wonder if i should spread all of it on the surface, or rather outline the 2x2 feet area only, then proceed to buff inside of the outlined perimeter ? Cause, i thought of it this way: if too thin a film is left on the surface, then it might explain why it buffs off SO quickly.



3. how much pressure do you apply on the pad using the 5937 MG ?



Ok, i'll let you go and so will i in fact lol........girlfriend wants to go to her sister's ....catch yo later Deanski :wavey
 
Do you find 3M's SMR 39009 to produce a better shine than 5937 ? I had thought of following up 5937 with 39009 in fact but havent't done it yet.



Both our cars(mine and girlfriend's) don't have that much of paint damage, swirls are the most obvious one, and perhaps some light scratches here and there. As to swirls, they re gone, as i closely looked at the surface of the hood yesterday night, using a projector lamp. But as i told Deanski, it lacks luster :( Since i will be putting on Zaino as a final sealant, i want the finish to be as mirror like as possible prior to Z.



Of course i could use 5941 FG, yet Z will prolly not adhere to it, so i have to think of either the IHG that Deanski suggested to me, or the SMR which if im correct seems to give better shine than 5937.



Come to think of it, do you spread all of the product(5937 in this case) on the entire area, or just outline the perimeter of a 2x2 surface to be buffed ? As i told Deanski i spread it all inside the perimeter of the 2x2 surface, and find that it lets to thin a film, therefore flash off time is ever so short........let me know if im doing anything wrong.



:wavey
 
Chip,

There are a lot of variables involved. The products are very close in design and, as mentioned, I think there is a great deal of overlap between the Perfect It 5937 and SMR 39009.



I like to finish up with SMR. I like it's ability to create a luster better. Use a white pad where and consider using a grey ultra soft pad for the final steps.



On dark cars, even this can still leave a slight haze (not visible scratches, persee) that a lighter finish will not show up. For this use a paint cleanser or glaze which has very little abrasive and high concentrate of fillers/oils/solvents. (It all depends on the brand.) It's the low abrasive content you are looking for.



IHG is a product that is mainy a product that works because of it's fillers so it "hides" swirls. This is not what you are looking for, in my opinion. If the swirls are gone then you don't need fillers. Glazes are of less and less a benefit to you.



The "flatter" and flatter you make the surface the better your optics will be. The more direct the reflections will be (between the surface and your eye). Ideally, you want to seal in perfect clarity under the wax or sealant. If you can achieve this by polishing away all scratches and swirls then you have achieved success. The next step is to protect and seal that clarity with a wax. Then you can enhance that clarity, or even tint it with any number of products.



Some glazes further fill damaged areas, Zaino, is close to optical clarity so it enhances what you have, many carnauba waxes tint the surface and change the look even more. These toppings are all icing on the cake but should ALL be done after flattening the surface first.



In otherwords, yes, you want to worry about getting the proper gloss on the surface but it's not something that comes with the proper glaze or formula concoction of oils or something. It's what that comes with the proper quality compounding and buffing technique FIRST.



As far as spreading, I always work from the middle out and in a small area. 2x2 is about the absolute max area I ever do in one application.



Sorry for the rambling reply!



Best of luck!:xyxthumbs
 
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