tom p.
Active member
Bence said:
Excellent. Thanks, Bence !
Confounded by the plastic bag test !
- Thread starter tom p.
- Start date
Excellent. Thanks, Bence !
addysdaddy
Member
Looking for an alternative to Iron X and Wolf's Decon. Anyone have experience with the Finish Kare Paint Decontamination System, auto paint cleaning system, de-contamination solution?
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
addysdaddy said:
Finish Kare and ValuGuard decontamination systems are very similar. See http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopi...42-valugard-paint-decontamination-system.html
Accumulator
Well-known member
TOGWT said:
Heh heh, better not let Ron Ketcham hear you say that :grinno: :chuckle:
Ron Ketcham
Active member
You got that right, I was instrumental in the developement of the FK system, but never got Floyd to make changes in it after a few years when it was needed, due to changes in the paint systems, the trim material changes, etc.
The ABC is safer, more effective and does not create ground water contamination.
Once a person has done a couple of cars and understands "process", have their supplies mixed and at the ready, should be able to do the complete process of A-B-C in no more than 45 minutes, 30 if you are really following process.
After all, one is going to "wash" the vehicle before they polish or clay, right, ----so that time required to apply the car wash solution is the same amount of time as to apply the A. While it is dwelling 7 to 10 minutes, clean the wheels, tires, a little water overspray is not going to hurt a thing, and you can use the A solution to remove bug guts from the vehicle during this time as well.
Rinse, remove the excess water from the top, hood, trunk and tops of the bumper fascia's and apply the B. ( no need to dry the glass, the sides, waste of time)
It requires aprox 7 to 10 minutes of dwell time, so if the iron oxides are really bad, use the insect pad to agitate and pull up and out, those iron particles, the A and B also remove any acid deposits, heavy soiling of the paint while it works on the iron oxides.adding a bit of B as you go to keep lubrication.
Rinse quickly, no reason to get all carried away and apply the C product,(this "neutralizes the paint system, clear down into the pores) and do your normal "detail" wash of the vehicle. This is when you do the windows, etc and do your total drying of the vehicle.
It is much quicker than many attempt to make it.
And, for the last 7 or 8 years, the ValuGard or Ford Motorcraft ABC system is the ONLY such system that has been tested and approved by vehicle manufacturers,(some of the currentTechnical Service Bulletins can be seen on the Valugard.net website) so unless one is smarter than their paint/trim engineers, is the system to use.
Grumpy
The ABC is safer, more effective and does not create ground water contamination.
Once a person has done a couple of cars and understands "process", have their supplies mixed and at the ready, should be able to do the complete process of A-B-C in no more than 45 minutes, 30 if you are really following process.
After all, one is going to "wash" the vehicle before they polish or clay, right, ----so that time required to apply the car wash solution is the same amount of time as to apply the A. While it is dwelling 7 to 10 minutes, clean the wheels, tires, a little water overspray is not going to hurt a thing, and you can use the A solution to remove bug guts from the vehicle during this time as well.
Rinse, remove the excess water from the top, hood, trunk and tops of the bumper fascia's and apply the B. ( no need to dry the glass, the sides, waste of time)
It requires aprox 7 to 10 minutes of dwell time, so if the iron oxides are really bad, use the insect pad to agitate and pull up and out, those iron particles, the A and B also remove any acid deposits, heavy soiling of the paint while it works on the iron oxides.adding a bit of B as you go to keep lubrication.
Rinse quickly, no reason to get all carried away and apply the C product,(this "neutralizes the paint system, clear down into the pores) and do your normal "detail" wash of the vehicle. This is when you do the windows, etc and do your total drying of the vehicle.
It is much quicker than many attempt to make it.
And, for the last 7 or 8 years, the ValuGard or Ford Motorcraft ABC system is the ONLY such system that has been tested and approved by vehicle manufacturers,(some of the currentTechnical Service Bulletins can be seen on the Valugard.net website) so unless one is smarter than their paint/trim engineers, is the system to use.
Grumpy
Dan
Well-known member
Wow, 30 minutes!?!?! I feel I'm pretty fast with ONR and it takes me 20 on a cleanish car.
jfelbab
New member
Hey, if the car looks great, sit back, smile and have a cool one. If you spent hours claying one panel, then sealed it and you parked under a tree for a couple hours you would likely fail that bag test. You may just have tree sap on the panel and you can remove that with a mild IPA or a chemical cleaner. Ocoat is pretty impervious to IPA, BTW. Unless you keep your car covered and in a garage 24x7, it is going to attract contaminants.
addysdaddy
Member
jfelbab said:
Personally I found this statement to be true; however I believe you need to get the paint "bag test" ready before polishing & sealing. The fact that contaminates will recur just makes the product manufacturers giddy happy.
tom p.
Active member
Here's my follow up on the plastic baggie test. I bought some of the Wolf's "deironizer" decon product and applied that. I let it sit for about 10 minutes. I'm only working on the hood of this car. I had OptiCoated it about 6 weeks ago and I strongly believe I sealed over a bunch of stuff. It failed the plastic baggie test in a miserable way.
Here's the Wolf's product after 10 mins of dwell:
It rinses easily, I did a quick wipe with water and my wash mitt:
I did the plastic baggie test again and would estimate that the Wolf's did remove a good amount of the tree sap, but I suspect much of the stuff I'm feeling is under the OptiCoat and more aggressive action would be needed.
I wanted to test the action of clay vs. Uno polish on the OptiCoat. I polished half the hood with the Uno without claying. The result was quite good, but still not 100% clean.
I moved to the other half of the hood and did just clay, the result was not as good as the Uno:
I ended up doing the entire hood with Uno (aggressively) followed by M205 to maximize the luster:
I'm sure the hood is the worst of it. I'll have to deal with un-doing the OptiCoat on the fenders and front bumper. The rest of the car has FK 1000p on it and I was able to get quite a respectable result with just the clay and M205 followed by a sealant. That was close to 100% contaminant free. The OptiCoat introduces a far greater challenge when cleaning this up.
I think a future game plan for me will be:
Decon>clay>KAIO>sealant
I need to work on another car today. It will be a lesser challenge for these products since OptiCoat removal is not involved.
I need to wash my car and I may do one more decon step on the hood prior to re-OptiCoating. I can still feel tiny bit of bonded material. I'll then wipe with IPA (50/50) prior to OptiCoat. I'm on the lookout for a couple of dry days.
Accumulator, thanks for the Uno suggestion. That seemed to work well in this scenario. I supposed I should be able to finish the Uno off (different pad?) and not need the M205, right? I suspect I added a step that I didn't need, but the M205 did help.
Here's the Wolf's product after 10 mins of dwell:
It rinses easily, I did a quick wipe with water and my wash mitt:
I did the plastic baggie test again and would estimate that the Wolf's did remove a good amount of the tree sap, but I suspect much of the stuff I'm feeling is under the OptiCoat and more aggressive action would be needed.
I wanted to test the action of clay vs. Uno polish on the OptiCoat. I polished half the hood with the Uno without claying. The result was quite good, but still not 100% clean.
I moved to the other half of the hood and did just clay, the result was not as good as the Uno:
I ended up doing the entire hood with Uno (aggressively) followed by M205 to maximize the luster:
I'm sure the hood is the worst of it. I'll have to deal with un-doing the OptiCoat on the fenders and front bumper. The rest of the car has FK 1000p on it and I was able to get quite a respectable result with just the clay and M205 followed by a sealant. That was close to 100% contaminant free. The OptiCoat introduces a far greater challenge when cleaning this up.
I think a future game plan for me will be:
Decon>clay>KAIO>sealant
I need to work on another car today. It will be a lesser challenge for these products since OptiCoat removal is not involved.
I need to wash my car and I may do one more decon step on the hood prior to re-OptiCoating. I can still feel tiny bit of bonded material. I'll then wipe with IPA (50/50) prior to OptiCoat. I'm on the lookout for a couple of dry days.
Accumulator, thanks for the Uno suggestion. That seemed to work well in this scenario. I supposed I should be able to finish the Uno off (different pad?) and not need the M205, right? I suspect I added a step that I didn't need, but the M205 did help.
tom p.
Active member
Here's the Wolf's decon product:
Yes, it's got kind of a foul smell, but who cares? (I'd liken it to a ripe out-house on a hot summer day and someone has attempted to mask the odor with a mint air freshener
)
I was concerned about applying/spraying it, but it was not an issue. It mostly sticks where you spray it. I did smear it across the hood of the car. The viscosity reminds me of something P21S TAW where it clings well. I'm looking forward to trying it on some cruddy wheels and tar-caked regions just behind the wheel well openings. Those seem to represent a bit more of a challenge.
I did not observe any color change when using it apart from it turning light as it dried. As noted above, it rinses away nicely and seems to leave a fairly clean surface with minimal to no agitation. I'd guess 1L bottle will do several vehicles.
Yes, it's got kind of a foul smell, but who cares? (I'd liken it to a ripe out-house on a hot summer day and someone has attempted to mask the odor with a mint air freshener
)I was concerned about applying/spraying it, but it was not an issue. It mostly sticks where you spray it. I did smear it across the hood of the car. The viscosity reminds me of something P21S TAW where it clings well. I'm looking forward to trying it on some cruddy wheels and tar-caked regions just behind the wheel well openings. Those seem to represent a bit more of a challenge.
I did not observe any color change when using it apart from it turning light as it dried. As noted above, it rinses away nicely and seems to leave a fairly clean surface with minimal to no agitation. I'd guess 1L bottle will do several vehicles.
addysdaddy
Member
Interesting results Tom. I'm a disappointed that u didn't clay & then polish with Uno. I know ur looking for a an abridged version of how do pass the bag test but I'm not surprised by your results. My guess is the combination of clay and Uno would have gotten all but a tiny bit of the contamination. The remainder can be removed (if u so desire) with one of the cleanser products we've discussed early. FWIW and to your point earlier, I just wash the truck which normally resides in the garage. Two weeks after a thorough scrubbing it passed the bag test with flying colors. My daily driver that sits out 9-5 everyday and only one week since it's thorough detail, failed the test just as we suspected. STILL...if ur looking for maximum benefit from that LSP, gotta get the paint pristine. Guess that's why they call it detailing.
Accumulator
Well-known member
tom p. said:
While I suppose it's just user-error, I can't get Uno to finish out the way I'd like. I follow it with something...Menzerna, 1Z (either High Gloss or the old Pro MP), something.. before I do the LSP.
Glad you're making progress (well, "glad" considering that you've decided to bother with it at all
).
tom p.
Active member
addysdaddy said:
I did do this...well, on half the hood I did. It still wasn't quite enough, but I don't want to say this result is decisive cuz the OptiCoat was involved and that shifts the tactic, IMO.
Overall, I'm pleased with the final result and I just finished re-OptiCoating the hood a few mins ago.
tom p.
Active member
OK, to address the questions about whether the Wolf's turns red or not - - it does.
I had the good fortune this afternoon of a big Audi 4.2L rolling in the driveway with dirty wheels :bigups :bigups Now, we're not talking "toxic dirty" as this car is well-kept, but the wheels hadn't had a proper cleaning for some time and I was very excited about trying the Wolf's. While the owner thought my request a bid odd, they said "sure". On one side of the car I did the front wheel with just the Wolf's and the rear wheel with Griot's since it was already sitting out. The Wolf's does turn red after about 3 - 4 mins and then it turns black as it kinda melts the crud clean. It was hot today and the wheels/brakes were hot so I got quick drying and had to agitate to get it to rinse away. The rear wheel cleaned up pretty well with the Griot's, but a fair amount of embedded stuff (corners) remained and I really wasn't surprised. The front wheel was cleaner but somewhat dull. The Wolf's is certainly not a weekly wheel cleaner but more of a re-con type of product...as I expected.
On the other side of the car I misted the wheels with the Wolf's and grabbed a tooth brush. I did just a bit of scrubbing in corners with the tooth brush and that was enough to liberate the embedded stuff in the corners. I was quite pleased to see this. I've used plenty of different wheel cleaners and was impressed how well it did without too much effort. I then followed up with an application and secondary cleaning with Griot's. The wheels looked nice after this and were mostly clean without much effort
Wolf's is reported to be pH-neutral.
I had the good fortune this afternoon of a big Audi 4.2L rolling in the driveway with dirty wheels :bigups :bigups Now, we're not talking "toxic dirty" as this car is well-kept, but the wheels hadn't had a proper cleaning for some time and I was very excited about trying the Wolf's. While the owner thought my request a bid odd, they said "sure". On one side of the car I did the front wheel with just the Wolf's and the rear wheel with Griot's since it was already sitting out. The Wolf's does turn red after about 3 - 4 mins and then it turns black as it kinda melts the crud clean. It was hot today and the wheels/brakes were hot so I got quick drying and had to agitate to get it to rinse away. The rear wheel cleaned up pretty well with the Griot's, but a fair amount of embedded stuff (corners) remained and I really wasn't surprised. The front wheel was cleaner but somewhat dull. The Wolf's is certainly not a weekly wheel cleaner but more of a re-con type of product...as I expected.
On the other side of the car I misted the wheels with the Wolf's and grabbed a tooth brush. I did just a bit of scrubbing in corners with the tooth brush and that was enough to liberate the embedded stuff in the corners. I was quite pleased to see this. I've used plenty of different wheel cleaners and was impressed how well it did without too much effort. I then followed up with an application and secondary cleaning with Griot's. The wheels looked nice after this and were mostly clean without much effort
Wolf's is reported to be pH-neutral.
tom p.
Active member
I spent some additional time with these new products today and found that the Wolf's cleaned up what appear to be water spots on these alumimum roof rails on the wagon. I have not found any other product that could improve the appearance. One rail is perfect, the other not too far behind.
I followed up with Uno and then IPA wipe and finished off with OptiCoat. This car is pretty much done and is an excellent candidate for a "permanent" coating like OC.
I followed up with Uno and then IPA wipe and finished off with OptiCoat. This car is pretty much done and is an excellent candidate for a "permanent" coating like OC.
Buffautodetail
New member
This may have been said before, I only skimmed the thread. But what about IronX and clay? The best combo I can think of!
addysdaddy
Member
Buffautodetail said:
I would agree with that BD however the paint still won't pass the test. There's another paint cleansing step required - ask Tom P. haha. (sorry Tom, couldn't resist) The benefits of a light paint cleaner, cleansing lotion or pre-wax cleaner - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum I found this article by Mike Phillips on the value of using a paint cleaner. Interesting that he even states that claying will not remove all the contaminants in the paint and that an additional cleansing step is required.
tom p.
Active member
I really wonder whether the paint cleaners will have enough horsepower to remove what the clay and Wolf's cound not. I tend to think they will not due to their mild nature.
I have Meg's #6 and can try that this weekend. I'm not keen on adding more mild products to my over-flowing shelves.
Does Meguiar's produce a paint cleanser/cleaner? Pro or consumer?? I've got D151 but wouldn't classify it as such.
I have Meg's #6 and can try that this weekend. I'm not keen on adding more mild products to my over-flowing shelves.
Does Meguiar's produce a paint cleanser/cleaner? Pro or consumer?? I've got D151 but wouldn't classify it as such.
tom p.
Active member
Mike Phillips address my concern right here:
I've spent some serious time on several cars trying to clean this stuff off with #205 and it is not the solution.
Mike.Phillips said:
I've spent some serious time on several cars trying to clean this stuff off with #205 and it is not the solution.
addysdaddy
Member
I don't have an explanation but whatever M#205 left behind, the cleanser products cleaned it up. Doesn't make sense I know, but that's what I discovered.