Clear Coat Thickness and Paint Removal by Polishing

Ron Ketcham said:
Thank you, we are not really far apart on this.

The silca contributes to the locking of the UV blockers (PPG patented UV Blockers Solex is one of the main ones), for without such a component in the formulation the UV blockers tend to disipate much faster than one would like.

The silica, as you point out, contributes to the "harder/denser" portion of the top of the clear.

Which goes back to the way that so many in the contacts that we have known (unfortunet for me, many are either retired, out of the business or dead) that I worked with.

Daryl passed away, Hartman got moved, Hughes got let lose, Bonnani is all tied up with the new center in Inkster, etc.

Let alone what has happened in the paint suppliers.

Leaves me out of the loop these days.

The ceramic issue is the result of John and Daryl and myself working with it, since Chrysler was experimening with them at the Windsor paint test facility.

None of us were impressed once a micron or so of the ceramic clear was sanded or buffed away, but that was over 6 years ago.

Things move on, they change and therefore I may only refer to what I learned at the time when I was active.

Grumpy
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Ron,



I am very sorry to hear about Daryl Porter passing away. I am actually shocked since he was not that old! He was a great friend and very knowledgeable and I learned a lot from him. I met Daryl at NACE in 2004 and he invited us to his labs in Auburn Hills and from then on we met there several times a year; basically anytime we had something new he wanted to see it. He was one of the few old timers that was not afraid of change and was always looking for new systems and new ideas. He also had many great stories one of which was about renting Shelby Mustangs or other hot rods for a weekend then painting it in a garage and race all weekend then painting it back and returning it on Monday.



I stayed in touch with Daryl for a while after he retired and always had it in my plans to call and meet with him in my next trip to Detroit. Like I said, he was not that old!
 
He was one of a kind, worked with him in the old Finish Kare days, than when with AI.

He was doing some teaching on the side at a Tech College after retirement, plus was working on finally restoring his collection of muscle cars, etc.

Ever see his home garage, lifts, etc, etc, better than most dealerships, etc.

Heart attack claimed him, quickly, which is not all that bad of a way to go.

I had noticed during the last couple of years that he did not have good color, was a little short of energy, etc. but just let it go.

Grumpy

(PS, he had me come up to do some testing on a couple of your compounds, sort of "well, what do you think? sort of thing. I did my bit and had to be honest, "great stuff", and it is )
 
TOGWT said:
I’m by no means an authority on paint composition and as in all things more than prepared to learn new things, but I thought that Benzotriazole was used as a corrosion inhibitor and Nano Zinc Oxide was used as an ultra violet inhibitor
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Jon,



This is one of the pitfalls of the Internet. If you search for benzotriazole, it will show you that they are used as a corrosion inhibitor for metals. However, benzotriazoles are a family of compounds that contain the following moiety:a cyclic compound with the linkage –N=N–NH– connected to a benzene ring. In the automotive industry as Ron knows better than I do, cars are dipped into several tanks of phosphates and other inorganics which provide corrosion protection before primer is sprayed. Benzotriazoles used for UV protection are much more complex ( for example: 2-(2'-Hydroxy-3',5'-di-tert-butylphenyl)-5-chloro benzotriazole is one of the many triazole UV blockers used in the automotive industry). I should mention that most paint manufacturers combine HALS (hindered amine light stablizers) with benzotriazoles for their synergistic effects. Lastly while transparent zinc oxide is used in house paints and hand lotions, we never used it in manufacturing clear coat paints since it would affect the clarity of the finish.



David,
 
Ron Ketcham said:
He was one of a kind, worked with him in the old Finish Kare days, than when with AI.

He was doing some teaching on the side at a Tech College after retirement, plus was working on finally restoring his collection of muscle cars, etc.

Ever see his home garage, lifts, etc, etc, better than most dealerships, etc.

Heart attack claimed him, quickly, which is not all that bad of a way to go.

I had noticed during the last couple of years that he did not have good color, was a little short of energy, etc. but just let it go.

Grumpy

(PS, he had me come up to do some testing on a couple of your compounds, sort of "well, what do you think? sort of thing. I did my bit and had to be honest, "great stuff", and it is )
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Ron,



I never got to visit his garage but he always told me that he was doing a lot of paint projects there. We always feel like we will have another chance another day but... you are right though. Thank you.



David,
 
Can we get some plain-English translators in this thread please? :rofl:



Even my two years of Chemistry back in high school is proving worthless right now :o
 
I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. :rockon1:
 
RaskyR1 said:
I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. :rockon1:
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I agree, this doesn't happen nearly enough.
 
Dr.G I appreciate your input / comments.



I researched ultra violet coat chemicals (PPG, DuPont, et al) and amount used and came up empty, Benzotriazole only came up in terms of a corrosion inhibitor. I don't understand why paint specs should be such a mystery, or maybe I'm looking in the wrong places (chem engineering ref books)is probably not the right place
 
TOGWT said:
Dr.G I appreciate your input / comments.



I researched ultra violet coat chemicals (PPG, DuPont, et al) and amount used and came up empty, Benzotriazole only came up in terms of a corrosion inhibitor. I don't understand why paint specs should be such a mystery, or maybe I'm looking in the wrong places (chem engineering ref books)is probably not the right place
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Jon,



Thank you for asking. Any technical information that I have shared here is public information but I can not talk about the specifics due to the confidentiality of the formulations I worked on. The formulation information that you are asking for is publicly available, however, not via google since these are highly specific and technical information. The place to search for them is in patents which are public domain. Just go to United States Patent and Trademark Office website and follow the menu to search for patents. To get you started, check patent #6060573 which was awarded to Bayer Corporation in May of 2000 for a novel one component isocyanate that is stablized from UV damage by using a combination of benzotriazoles and HALS. They discuss the UV stablizers levels in this patent which is what I think you are looking for. I hope this helps.



David,
 
David, you did all you could.

As you presented, it is very difficult, if not almost impossible to share all with those who ask questions.

Then, as we both are aware, no matter what the information or sources provided, there are those who will continue to question and "twist" whatever the information provides.

As we are both not only business people, but who have spent years of working in the industry, this is nothing new to us.

Legal issues have to be addressed, as well as when such direction is provided, acceptance of "ego's" will be part of the experience.

I would assume that one of those things we have learned to accept is that there will always be those who just refuse to accept documented or information provided by some who have spent years doing what they wish to do, will go back to "ego driven" responses.

These things just don't make them feel happy or "learned" about a subject matter.

Grumpy
 
RaskyR1 said:
I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. :rockon1:
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Without a doubt. I only wish I could meet some of these guys in person to pick their brains. Amazing wealth of knowledge: I just wish I was intelligent enough to ask all the right questions.
 
David, Thank you for the info and resource link.



I realize that all companies must keep secure their proprietary information and agreements. Without this, no business would have the incentive to develop new products, expand their market, stay competitive, and ultimately - exist.



But I'm sure you can understand with your chemical background. I prefer to check the claims made by most product vendors, as at best they are mostly marketing fiction as opposed to fact, especially when it comes to the chemicals used
 
Well now that we have a consensus on this topic I think we need to change the direction of this thread and reiterate the importance of educating out clients on proper care, using the least aggressive method to get the job done so that we are not removing unnecessary amounts of clear, and we need to make sure we are not over polishing cars just to strive for 100% correction all the time.



The UV migration from the wax is something I was not aware of and I think this is great info that can help us explain the importance/benefit of waxing to our clients.



Most importantly, I think these new coatings like Opti-Coat are revolutionary to our business. By offering these type of products to our clients we are in a sense offing them a renewable clear coat, but with much better properties (better scratch and Mar resistance, better release properties, better UV resistance, better gloss retention...). I've been using this information to help sell Opti-Coat to my clients for a while now, especially the ones with new cars sporting very thin OEM paints (Infiniti's with 80-90 microns). I don't really try to sell it as a permanent coating so much, rather I simply highlight the attributes above and let them know that when it does come time for polishing again, we will be removing less OEM paint, and we will be adding in more UV protection to replenish whatever we may have removed.





I think this thread should be a sticky too! :)





Rasky
 
TOGWT said:
David, Thank you for the info and resource link.



I realize that all companies must keep secure their proprietary information and agreements. Without this, no business would have the incentive to develop new products, expand their market, stay competitive, and ultimately - exist.



But I'm sure you can understand with your chemical background. I prefer to check the claims made by most product vendors, as at best they are mostly marketing fiction as opposed to fact, especially when it comes to the chemicals used
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Jon,



I think it is great that you help educate people on these complicated issues. I agree with you that you should look for other sources than the manufacturers for information and that is the reason why I never get involved in discussions relating to product performance.



David,
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
Can we get some plain-English translators in this thread please? :rofl:



Even my two years of Chemistry back in high school is proving worthless right now :o
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No kidding, I am hopelessly lost now!
 
Getting back on topic, I'd be very surprised if even a heavy polishing session took off even .1 mil of clear. I remember when Joe (Superior Shine) did just that. Took off .3 mil with wetsanding and paint thickness didn't drop after he polished out the sanding marks. However, it is best if you use proper washing techniques so as to minimize the need to regularly compound the paint. I recently re-detailed a Mini Cooper I had corrected via rotary in April 2010. At the time, I went over the proper washing techniques with the owner of the car. When I revisited the car a few days ago, the paint was still nearly 100% corrected. All it took was a light claying and OHP with the Meguiars microfiber finishing pad to jewel out the paint and add some depth. If the owner keeps up his washing regiment, his car will likely never need a major correction again and that is what we should strive for.
 
Scottwax said:
Getting back on topic, I'd be very surprised if even a heavy polishing session took off even .1 mil of clear. I remember when Joe (Superior Shine) did just that. Took off .3 mil with wetsanding and paint thickness didn't drop after he polished out the sanding marks..
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I've taken off that much and more with "just a heavy polishing session" (i.e, no wetsanding, not even using the rotaries). I forget the exact numbers but I had some areas of the MPV diminished by 1/2mil compared to the rest of it (and the rest was very thin too, 3mils was "thick" on that car) and I took off even more of some places of the Yukon XLD. The current owners of both better not do any singificant polishing or they're gonna need painwork.



I quit compounding the Crown Vic's issues at the point where the readings got down under 110microns, and that's a fair bit of removal too (though I've seen those cars withstand much more removal, at least in the short-term). Sorta surprised me how terrible it still looked after taking off all that clear, not even close to "Autopian"...just so much residual marring (good thing it's a white beater-car).
 
RaskyR1 said:
I love threads like this when some of the most knowledgeable people in the industry come together and collaborate on an important topic. :rockon1:
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Holy Epic thread Batman, this one will go down in Autopia history for sure. 5*'s. Thanks to Ron & David for colaborating on the search for extreme knowledge to help Autpians! You guys are truly a wealth of information and Autopia is priviledged to have you here. Out of the 100's of people in the know, I value your opinions over most everyones! :thx
 
RaskyR1 said:
Hey Fermani...



Since we are talking about all this it would be interesting to hear/see how the leveled hood on your car has held up over the last 2 years now? For those who may not know, David removed significantly more clear than the manufacture recommends on the hood of his brand new Fusion (Ford .3 Mil). On top of that, the car is also exposed to the Florida elements 24/7, and it's also being washed using Dawn or harsh touch-less washes with no added protection on half the hood (Opti-Guard on the other half).



David, did you by any chance take before and after PTG readings on the hood? I'm assuming you removed a good 15 microns (.6 Mil) , if not more...



Only reason I bring this up is that I've seen a lot of conflicting information on this topic (UV migration) and it would be nice to see solid data or evidence on the matter.





David's car



Thanks,

Rasky
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You're going to have to wait for the grand finale coming in the next couple months to see the final results & assessments of my review. :nana: For the record, I sanded the hood flat (lots of 1500), coated 1/2 of it, nothing on the other 1/2 and have washed with Dawn & touchless washes (w/o hot wax)while it remains in the hot sun (engine running) everyday. Even though I didn't take any initial readings prior to the test, I have measured the car after and the readings are all over the map on the hood. As much as a .8 variance from coated(peak) to bare (low).
 
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