Clear coat polishing help

Ive got an Alpine white '99 M3 with 71k miles. Im a fanatic about keeping it spotless and always polished. I try to not drive in the rain, and when I do, I immediately dry it with my large microfiber waffle weave.



Because the car is 8 yrs old, over the years, Ive accumulated some surface, clear coat level scratches, primarily on the hood. IN daylight, the car glistens and shines, and people are awed by its appearance.. But under the indoor lights in the garage, its true character belies its condition. These are scratches that you can not grab with a fingernail, but theyre definitely '3 dimensional', although the edges have been polished down.



After having used the Porter Cable on it for 8 years, its getting to the point where Im a little afraid to polish into the clear much further for fear of having it fail, or outright braking through it. Over the years, Ive used usually Finesse It by 3M, or medium strength cleaner wax by 3m which Ive found to be a fabulous clear coat cleaner. And occasionally Poorboys 2.5 polish, or occasionally 3m med strength rubbing compound. When I see any scratching now, I usually take care of it the best I can by hand, and a cotton terry towel combined with 3M Med strength Cleaner Wax. But its getting to the point where Id really like to do the whole hood with the Porter Cable, polishing bonet, and Finesse It, or Poorboys 2.5. I have a paint thickness gauge, but its one of those hand held magnetic 'pen' type ones that dont cost very much.. Not all that useful. Ive got to take another reading soon, but last time, I recall I had about a mil less paint on the hood then on the roof or trunk, so Ive definitely removed some of the paint. HOw big a danger is it breaking through the clear like this? If Im really close to it, Id better just suffice it with hand polishing scratches as they occur, and forget about overall polishing of the hood with PC and any of the polishes I usually use.. Maybe some mild 3M swirl remover, or even some P21s Paintwork cleanser is all I should venture.. Ideas?



***EDIT update****



Took some paint thickness readings tonight.. Best was the trunk which was recently repainted. It registered 9mils. Next was the roof measured 7 mils. Last the hood which has had the most polishing because it is the cars leading edge and is always the one that suffers when cars kick up gravel on the highway. It only measured 6 mils. I beliefve the hood can still be polished, but nothing more potent than Porter Cable and perhaps a moderate strength polish like 3M Finesse it, or its equal.
 
Sorry about the long wait. I’m guessing that you didn’t get a response earlier because the post is a little thick to read and try to figure out exactly what your question is.



Anyway, you’re in a tough spot. There really isn’t a practical way to know for sure just how close you are to your minimum film thickness.



The magnetic stick thickness gauges are notoriously inaccurate and have poor repeatability. And the correct way to gauge how much has been polished off would have been to measure before and after on the same spots, not comparing one panel to another. Different panels will have different film build as they’re rolling off the assembly line. Comparing them years down the road doesn’t mean much.



Sorry, I know that’s not really helpful.



One more thing, drying a car after driving in the rain is a guaranteed to swirl. It’s not just water spraying on the car as you drive. It’s dirt too. Wiping it off grinds it against the paint.



Unless the car was just washed and completely free of dirt and was just standing perfectly still, parked nowhere near anything that might splash on it when it rained it’s best to do a soap and bucket wash.





PC.
 
I didn't reply earlier because his e36's clear sounds much softer/easier to correct than the mine does :nixweiss No way a polish like that via PC would do any significant correction on mine.



Just a general, FWIW, I'ved polished a lot of cars a lot of times with the PC and Cyclo. Never had a problem with thinned clear on factory paint jobs. I'm taking a *LOT* of clear off my M3 via rotary, and I sure wouldn't expect this case to be problematic. While there are always risks, I'd be inclined to polish away until the marring is gone.



But remember that it's not a matter of going through the clear, you simply can't thin it too much or you'll precipitate early failure due to stuff like UV exposure.



Honestly, on a white car, I'd probably shoot for better as opposed to perfect and use something with a bit of concealing ability. But OTOH that's what people say to do with silver and I sure won't heed that advice myself ;)



But yeah, no wipedowns after the rain...either a full wash or don't touch it, literally (including the paint on the trunk lid/etc. in daily use).
 
Thanks for the replies. I found them helpful and encouraging. I have a problem with washing.. Living in a hirise condo, my options are either to take it to the next town to use a self service wash.. Or, to keep it in my condo parking, and use something like Optimum or poorboys waterless wash. Im talking about a car which, at its dirtiest, has some dust spots on it.. Nothing really dirty. For heavy dirt, which I hardly ever get, Id go to the self srvice place.. But for light dust kind of dirt, or light dust wihc rain fell on, I tend to use the waterless washes. Its really hard when you have to park your car in a communal garage and have no wash facilities where you live.. But hey, its better than folks who have to park it outdoors everynight, which is a situation alot of people have to live with also.
 
paul e- I sympathize with your plight, that's gotta be tough.



I think I'd try to attitude-adjust and live with a bit more imperfection than you'd like. I know that's more of my Autopian Heresy, but I'd hate for you to drive yourself nuts over this, it could diminish your enjoyment of a great car.



I'd stick with washes like the Optimum and use something like 1Z Metallic Polish w/Wax. It'd be a *little* better than the cleaner wax (at least I'd expect it to be). I'd probably use a nonstick LSP like Collinite wax. That'll help keep the wash-induced marring down too.



I had a white vehicle back when I didn't have a garage..I sure didn't keep it perfect, yet it still got a lot of compliments. I bet yours looks a lot better to everyone else than it does to you ;)
 
paul e, I just used ONR myself, and other than the awfully dirty chenille washpad (which I still can't get clean!) I really like ONR--less water use, less hassle with the hose, less hassle with drying the van!
 
MrAP said:
paul e, I just used ONR myself, and other than the awfully dirty chenille washpad (which I still can't get clean!) I really like ONR--less water use, less hassle with the hose, less hassle with drying the van!



Yea, Ive found it to do a really excellent job whenver ive used it. Frankly, I keep my car so clean and detailed, that often, before polishing, all I need to do is is go over it with Meguiars QD! Ive switched to Meguiars ULtimate QD for most of my detaililng, except prior to a polish I see no point in wasting its water-fearing properties just to be followed with a polish which will remove it anyway! So, if its only got dust, I hit it with Cal Duster followed by QD, followed by my PC and the designated hitter for the day; usually 3M Finesse-IT, or PB SSR2.5 followed by Finesse It; finish off with either S100, or Pinnacle Soverign, or Optimum spray wax, or even Collinite..I vary the finishing product usually. If the car has more than lite dust on it, but less than serious mud spots, Ill hit it with optimum No Rinse, as you guys suggested.. Lastly, if and only if its had a bout with rain and mud driving, Ill venture to the self srvc car wash where Ill soap and wash it down in a more conventional manner. IN this way Ive been able to keep the M3 looking its alpine white best for 8 yrs now despite living in a hirise condo! :D



>>I think I'd try to attitude-adjust and live with a bit more imperfection than you'd like. I'd stick with washes like the Optimum and use something like 1Z Metallic Polish w/Wax. It'd be a *little* better than the cleaner wax (at least I'd expect it to be). <<



Let me try and readjust your attitude some wrt the cleaner wax! :) Im referring specifically to my old standby, 3M Cleaner Wax Medium oxidation Remover. This stuff is as strong for scratch removal as Menzerna IP and as 3m Finesse It polish! Thats according to several lists which have appeared on these pages, and from my own personal experience as well. Its so strong that, if youre not careful, when applying by hand, you can create new swirl marks. The trick in using it is to apply with 100% cotton terry cloth, run in firmly, but do NOT let it dry.. Once it starts to dry, thats when the new swirls get created.. But using it teh way I suggest, it acts like an eraser and very effectively removes swirls up to a moderate depth.. For instance, swirls I create by rubbing to hard with it or any other strong polish Im easily able to remove simply by reapplying but not to the point where it starts to dry. Just dry it off and the swirls are gone.. Not filled, but removed.. I love this stuff and have used it for years for hand removal of swirls that catch my eye as Im examining the surface, but dont want to lug out the big guns, PC etc, to remove them. Try it if you havent .. I think that for a hand removal product, it works better than products like Meguiars Scratch-X, I believe, and, it leaves a wax cover when finished!!
 
paul e said:
...Let me try and readjust your attitude some wrt the cleaner wax! :) Im referring specifically to my old standby, 3M Cleaner Wax Medium oxidation Remover. This stuff is as strong for scratch removal as Menzerna IP and as 3m Finesse It polish!.. I think that for a hand removal product, it works better than products like Meguiars Scratch-X, I believe, and, it leaves a wax cover when finished!!



Ah, that's enlightening! Sorta sounds like some of the 1Z polishes in some ways. Heh heh, saying it's better than Scratch-x isn't saying much IMO ;) but it *does* sound like you've found a great product that does the job for you. Its ability to do minor correction on your BMW's clear speaks volumes!



I stand corrected :D Heh heh, I learn something new every day!
 
Accumulator said:
Ah, that's enlightening! Sorta sounds like some of the 1Z polishes in some ways. Heh heh, saying it's better than Scratch-x isn't saying much IMO ;) but it *does* sound like you've found a great product that does the job for you. Its ability to do minor correction on your BMW's clear speaks volumes!



I stand corrected :D Heh heh, I learn something new every day!



I think you would be quite shocked at how well it does. I dont know if youre like me in this regard, although I suspect that most detailing fanatics are. What Im talking about is, whenever I park my car somewhere, either in a store's lot, or in my own where I live, it doesnt much matter. Wherever it is, I cant help but give the surface the onceover with my critical eye, just to 'make sure' everything looks the way its supposed to.. At times like that, if my eye should fall on a scratch, or swirl, or anything which bends the sunlight to my dismay, theres no way I have the patience to say, Oh, ok, Ill remember to tackle that the next time Ive got my Porter Cable out. No way. I need to tackle it right There and Then! Thats when, Ive found, the trusty 3M One Step Cleaner Wax for Medium Oxidation Removal, #39066 really shines. Put a nickel or quarter sized amount on a thick 100% cotton terry cloth. Go right to the offending blemish, and with firm, but not too firm strokes, starting rubbing the damage. Dont rub til its try or youll introduce more swirls. Learning when to stop is half the battle, but several times Ive made the mistake of doing what I do with the PC and most of the polishes I use with it, ie, working the product til its almost dry, and powders.. That works fine with the action of the foam pad on the PC, but, when you work it by hand, its much more likely to cause scratches, and you dont have the speed or motion, by hand, to work the product so that it rubs out any created marring. So, working it til its try just will create scratches. What you want to do is work it til its not wet any more, but not til its dry. Work it til its Moist, I would say. Maybe 20 to 25 seconds or so. Then, just wipe it off, and underneath should be a swirl free, glossy finish with carnauba protection. If you work it the right amount, it will come off fairly easily, leaving no steaking.. If you work it too far, its harder to wipe off; thats one of the telltale sign you need to apply more, but work it less. Also, if you have a small isolated scratch, you may be tempted to press with one finger harder in that spot.. Fight that urge. Make sure you work the cloth as if it were a pad, using the pressure of you whole hand, or fist to work the product.. Concentrating the pressure on one finger in the towel will likely cause scratches, which youll have to remove by applying more in the right way. I usually take a thick cotton terry cloth, grab it so that an approx. 3-4" diameter surface is available, apply a nickel amount of product, and then rub the damage putting pressure on the whole 3-4" surface.



Well, thats pretty much the sum of my knowledge and experience when it comes to this product on BMW base coat/clear coat finishes.. Mine is Alpine White. Ive tried most of the products over the years and for this type of use, nothing has been able to replace it in my arsenal.
 
paul e- Yeah, the "don't work it dry" sounds like most polishes (1Z excepted).



Interesting that it finishes out OK with terry..on my paints there are very few terry materials that'll leave a flawless finish with *any* product ( the CBT/DFT work fine though).



Gotta say though, I do 99.999% of my polishing by machine (4" pads for small repairs). Doing two barely visible scratches behind the S8's door handle took well over half an hour...I'm gonna let the machines do work like that :D



Oh, and, heh heh, that "gotta fix it now" thing is *NOT* me :D Other than filling up at gas stations at night, I simply don't inspect my vehicles' finishes except when I'm washing/detailing them (note that when I *do* inspect, I use multiple light sources, magnification, etc. etc.). I'm not even the kind of guy who admires his car in a parking lot (FWIW, I'm paying attention to other things...situational awareness and all that ;) ).



I know, I know, that's more of my Autopian Heresy :o but this stuff just isn't that big a priority to me :o
 
paul e, I think that all this polishing is unnecessary. It's very obvious that you are creating swirls when you are 1)Wiping off with a WWMF with no lubrication.. just dirt particles; 2)Using the California duster dry. These things are causing all the marring that you are spending so much time to remove by hand polishes.



What you need to do is start washing more carefully and use ONR all the time when you are washing. A QD is only used for very low dust conditions, which I doubt is the your case. With a more careful washing/drying regimen, you will no longer need to do heavy polishing with products like SSR 2.5/rubbing compounds.
 
Accumulator said:
paul e- Yeah, the "don't work it dry" sounds like most polishes (1Z excepted).



Interesting that it finishes out OK with terry..on my paints there are very few terry materials that'll leave a flawless finish with *any* product ( the CBT/DFT work fine though).



Gotta say though, I do 99.999% of my polishing by machine (4" pads for small repairs). Doing two barely visible scratches behind the S8's door handle took well over half an hour...I'm gonna let the machines do work like that :D



Oh, and, heh heh, that "gotta fix it now" thing is *NOT* me :D Other than filling up at gas stations at night, I simply don't inspect my vehicles' finishes except when I'm washing/detailing them (note that when I *do* inspect, I use multiple light sources, magnification, etc. etc.). I'm not even the kind of guy who admires his car in a parking lot (FWIW, I'm paying attention to other things...situational awareness and all that ;) ).



I know, I know, that's more of my Autopian Heresy :o but this stuff just isn't that big a priority to me :o





HEHEHEHE.. What are you.. Some kind of Deviant or Sumptin' ?! To further my 'fix it now' stock of products, I just received in the mail my order of Quixx.. the german 2 stage fix it now by hand stuff. Ill just stick it in the trunk basket along with my other detailing fix-it-now products..



The one thing thats caused more damage on my hood than any amount of lousy car washes (which I used to use in the winter back when i had to drive in such conditions), or more even than that damn Bra I used before I knew better, is driving on turnpikes occupied by TRUCKS! Especially the ones with a load in the back covered with a tarp, or not, that just pelts cars behind them for MILES. Once I had one pelt me with gravel and there was NO PLACE TO HIDE. I tried fading back but the stuff was in the air and pelting everybody.. NOt big stones.. just tiny sand particles and the like. But you all know that sinking feeling when you hear the grit bouncing off the paint.. Ive got about 4 holes in the hood paint, which ive filled pretty well with blobs of touchup paint. You can still see them in certain light, but you have to look for them ... One day, seeing all the money Ive spent on the engine, Ill probably get the hood and front end painted. Being Alpine White non-metallic, the match they get can be perfect. I had the trunk done and its gorgeous and noone can tell it was done. So, knowing that allows me to play with the hood and all kinds of products trying to keep it looking good until the repaint sometime in the future. One thing you can do is, if you do get pelted by sand and gravel in the way I described, claim it with your insurance company. They will pay for that kind of damage, and therefore you can get a front end repaint for just the cost of your deductible. I may actually wait for that. Or might even claim the hood dings Ive repaired was from a recent occurence, and use that to help subsidize the job.



Once I had a Volvo, and i was checking the battery water level.. Like an idiot, i shook out the tester, and droplets went on the paint.. Being acidic, I dont need to tell you what happened. Myriad of crusty holes in the paint. But, I was able to claim it as some unknown chemical in the air that splashed on my car. Im sure the gravel thing can be claimed in the same way. And since its nothing you caused, I dont think your rates have to necessarily go up.
 
mikebai1990 said:
paul e, I think that all this polishing is unnecessary. It's very obvious that you are creating swirls when you are 1)Wiping off with a WWMF with no lubrication.. just dirt particles; 2)Using the California duster dry. These things are causing all the marring that you are spending so much time to remove by hand polishes.



What you need to do is start washing more carefully and use ONR all the time when you are washing. A QD is only used for very low dust conditions, which I doubt is the your case. With a more careful washing/drying regimen, you will no longer need to do heavy polishing with products like SSR 2.5/rubbing compounds.



Ive never created a swirl with the cal Duster.. I only use it in good light, and am constantly checking it afterward.. It does not cause scratches when used lightly and properly on a car wtih little more than pollen levels of dust. Believe me, if youve read any of my stuff, youll know im constantly inspecting, so nobody knows better than I do what is causing them. My prior post explains what has done most of the damage.. The car is 8 yrs old, dont forget, with 70k miles. Pretty hard to own a car for this long with zero micro marring. Plus, in its early years of ownership, I had to drive in the winter, and I used some automatic car washes, which left their marks mostly on the side panels. I guarantee if you saw it youd be shocked it has that many years on it. Everybody else is :)



>>A QD is only used for very low dust conditions, which I doubt is the your case. <<



IF the things youre saying were true, Id have micro clear coat scratching all over the car.. I DONT.. i just have a few on the hood, caused by road rash and damage smacking the leading edge of the car.. The roof is completely free of any micro marring, as is the trunk.. I said I had the trunk repainted, but that was not from scratches, but rather from a stock spoiler which had developed rust under one of the attachment points. I hd the body shop repair and repaint, and they did an excellent job. so, Please, stop with the assumptions... you dont really know what youre talkking about in my case.. There is absolutely NOTHING ive said to make you assume ive got too much dust and dirt to use a QD.. . Ive explained what has caused the problems, so theres no point in your trying to second guess me.. thanks just the same :D
 
Alrighty, then! No need to get so defensive :) I just don't see how it's humanely possible to wipe the rain water off of even a mildly dirty car without inducing any marring, that's all.
 
mikebai1990 said:
Alrighty, then! No need to get so defensive :) I just don't see how it's humanely possible to wipe the rain water off of even a mildly dirty car without inducing any marring, that's all.



Youre right..I aplologize.... we autopians are simply INSANE about our cars :D
 
>>I just don't see how it's humanely possible to wipe the rain water off of even a mildly dirty car without inducing any marring, that's all.<<



Well, consider that first, my car never leaves the garage without a light cal duster swipe.. This assures me that even if I encounter a light shower when out driving, the raindrops wont leave dirt spatter spots. It also helps assure that the raindrops are clean and can be wiped clean without scratching. Second, I never wipe the rainwater unless the surface was spotless before the rains came.. My car is not the typical car that gets the normal amount of dirt. .Even on days I dont take the car out, I still visit it and either detail it down, or I use teh CAl duster if polen or dust of any kind has settled.. I never allow more than a couple of days worth of dust to settle. I know the dust conditions in this garage, and its patterns of dusting. I also have decent indoor lighting. I can see simply by touching a finger to the roof if any polen or dust has settled on the surface.. I do this several times a week.. So, that should help you understand why its so possible for me to keep things clean and in good shape by my methods.



I know where practically every clear coat layer scratch has come from, and theyre all related to either old use of auto carwashes, or road rash scouring parts of the hood, or incorrect use of a wool bonnet once upon a time.. Stuff like that. luckily a white car like mine does a wonderful job of hiding damage, and only a strong fluoresecent gives any hint that the surface is not quite perfect. I could probably get out what remains of the now rounded micromarring, only I see no point in risking damage by doign so, when the overall appearance is so damn good.



Well, I hope that explains at least some of my methods..
 
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