Clay Bar Holder?

Okay, hopefully something I tell you here can help.



There seems to be a controversy over how to tell if your leather is finished or unfinished. Put a few drops of water on your leather. If the water beads up, you have finished leather. If it soaks in, you have unfinished leather. Once reading the rest of this post, you'll hopefully understand why this test works. Also, on the same note, the reason I say to use water, as opposed to actually "testing" a product on your leather, is that water cannot harm your leather no matter which kind you have.



Regular, "unfinished leather" must be kept conditioned to retain its suppleness. This is very much like the skin on your body. The pores are exposed and can expand and contract depending on environmental conditions. Because of this, the leather can and will lose its own oils and will need them replaced by you. Otherwise, the leather will fade, dry, and crack. This can be accomplished by using a "Leather Conditioner". As you work the conditioner into the leather, the pores open up and absorb the oils.



Now, onto "finished leather". Finished leather has a topcoat of vinyl. This was first used to repel stains and make the leather last longer under normal environmental conditions. When this topcoat is applied, it covers the natural pores of the leather. Because of this, the pores cannot absorb the oils from a traditional "leather conditioner". The "vinyl topcoat" will not absorb anything that you try to put on it. For this reason alone does the detailing industry say that you shouldn't use conditioners. It's not that the conditioners are harmful, it's that you're doing all that work and wasting all that money for nothing. You should use a product on your leather that protects vinyl from fading, drying, and cracking.



Therefore, you CAN use traditional "leather conditioners" on your "unfinished leather" if you want. It's not hurting your leather, but it's not helping either.



If anyone still has any questions, hopefully I can provide some answers.:D
 
Hi Bowie,



Thanks for your post. I appreciate your efforts to help resolve the confusion in this area. It is something we need to resolve and I was happy to see your contribution in that direction. May I ask what the source is for the views you shared with us?
 
thats the first time i remeber anyone saying it that way....that your not "hurting it either"...most people suggest your gonna strip off the clear with the conditioner......BTW...like darb said....how u know so much dood...you killin cows again...
 
Well, I'm glad someone is getting some benefit from it. The main concern about "stripping" the topcoat is unfounded. Think about this: if you were to wipe the oils off your face and then touch your dashboard, would it then deteriorate over time? Only if you do not protect it from UV rays. The same goes for "finished" leather. Basically, treat it like vinyl.



Several of my friends are "car experts", so I asked them some questions as far as automobile leather is concerned. But, as far as finding out about the actual process of "finishing" leather, I called the Daimler Chrysler Corporation. Thwy helped to explain the process that the leather goes through when "finished".



Also, I'm in the military, so I need to know at least a "little" about leather in order to keep my boots protected and shining like a mirror.



And, yes, they shine like a mirror.:cool:
 
Grifter question about the coating:



How does the leather breathe if the pores are blocked by the coating? Would it not dry out on the inside of the seat? What would make the coating disapear? My big butt rubbing or chemicals?
 
I will try to answer them in order. But, just to let everyone know, I'm not the World's Leading Expert or anything. This information is based on information that I have recieved from reliable sources and from past experiences.



1.)Essentially, the leather doesn't breathe. However, most seats are perforated. this allows the leather to breathe to a certain extent and to accomodate our "big butts" as Guess so eloquently put it. I can't say definitively whether or not the leather will dry out from the inside out. Logically, you would think that this would occur, but it most likely won't happen till after you've gotten rid of the car anyway. Granted, if you have a Bentley, Ferrari, or the like you probably won't be getting rid of it at all, but these cars come with all-natural leather anyway so the point is moot.



2.)Sorry to say, but your big butt will most likely wear off the top coat long before any chemicals or oils will. Naturally, this all depends on how you get in and out of the car, how you sit, how much you move around while sitting, how much you drive, and a number of other variables that I can't even think of right now to factor in.



Chemicals, especially abrasive ones, can be very damaging to the top coat and possibly the leather itself. Of course, you should avoid these at all costs. Since the leather has a top coat of vinyl, you could get away with cleaning the seats with a damp cloth and then applying a water-based protectant to it.



Oils, on the other hand, are a different story. The oils contained in leather conditioner are natural oils and are not man-made. You can use these on finished leather with no ill effects. However, it WILL NOT do any good. Oils, whether from your skin or from sheep's wool (lanolin), or from any number of places, will not harm your top coat.



Eventually, though, the top coat WILL wear off. So, if you'd rather play it safe, apply conditioner a few times a year. It certainly won't hurt, and you just might end up saving your leather when the top coat finally does start to wear.
 
:up someone....not too long ago posted a thread with a link to another site...cant remeber which one...but there was this guy called TRADER...or sumthin like that...both u guys really got ahandle on this stuff....you might not think you know alot...but this area is really in limbo ....at least before u came:)
 
Hi Friends,

The fellow who started the above thread wanted a definitive answer to this controversy on whether or not oil-containing conditioners harm topcoated leathers. This is an attempt at that definitive response, hence the lenght of this post.

I have put up several posts and started a couple threads on this topic -- top coats and oil-containg conditioners. I have also discussed it in the Leather Forum at Edmunds.com. Here is some info and links.

This is a synopsis of the matter:

There appears to be some contradictory opinions regarding use of leather conditioners containing oils on modern leathers. Most modern auto leathers have "top coats." The top coats are formulated to create a variety of benefits, including protection of the leather.

The theory advanced is that leather conditioners containing oils will damage the top coat. On the other hand, leather conditioners such as Hide Food contain oils and are widely endorced.

Leathers in US cars are made by the Big Three tanners. Eagle Ottawa is one of the Big Three. They make top coated leather for auto makers. Tanner's Preserve is made by Eagle and recommended for use on all leathers. It is oil based.

I posted the above contradictory info on the Edmunds site and asked TraderAlex1 for his views. I posted his responce on this site. Here is the post:

http://216.147.22.29/forum/showthre...15&pagenumber=2

For more posts by TraderAlex1 on the subject of auto leather, top coats, the Big Three, etc., go to www.edmunds.com, the Townhall section, Maintainance sub-section, then select the Leather Maintainance forum.


Here is some info I wrote up on using saddle soap, and other leather topics:

A mostly academic comment: saddle soap is OK on vegetable tanned leathers. This comment is academic because almost none of your cars, and no new ones, have vegetable tanned leather. They are chrome tanned. Saddle soap is verbotin on chrome tanned leather. I do some leather work as a hobby and love the vegetable tanned leathers . . . you can work oil into them easily, you can really "feed" them, they will last forever, etc., but they are harder to come by and can be more expensive.

Hide food is OK. I have used it and it works, but, it is a good amount of work. Or, you could say it is very satisfying, because you get to rub in into the leather with your hands. It just a question of viewpoint. Is the glass half-empty or half-full?


Another piece I wrote :

Re Leather

Keeping the leather conditioned is important. As to the conditioner, TraderAlex1 on Edmunds.com says that the auto leather makers ("tanners") have tested all the national brands, extensively, and have found them all to be basically OK. He suggests to use what you like.

An idea has been circulating that you should not use products containing oils on modern auto leathers. All modern auto leathers have a "top coat" applied by the tanners per the auto maker's specifications. The top coat is designed to accomplish various purposes, protect the leather, etc. The idea is that products containing oils will break down the top coat.

TraderAlex1 posts on Edmunds.com. He is a dealer is hides. I asked him about this. TradeAlex1 wrote a long piece in response, politely refuting the idea. http://townhall-talk2.edmunds.com/W...^[email protected]/450 He has pointed out that 1. hides come from animals and they naturally have oils and fats in them (fats, which exist in hides, are simply oils that are solid at room temperature) 2. products containing oil -- which many national brands do -- have been tested by the tanners and they are OK. In fact, one of the big three tanners, Eagle Ottawa, sells a product, Tanners Preserve, that has oil.

Be aware, however, that certain oils, particularly straight oils like mink oil or neatsfoot oils, can perminantly darken the leather, and not always in a consistent manner. So, although I use mink oil on leather goods I make (as a hobby) those leathers are vegetable dyed and they are black to begin with. I would never use straight mink oil on light leather or modern auto leather, particularly if it was a light color leather. I guess you could use it on black, but, man, you'd have to let it sit awhile -- maybe a few days -- to let it soak in throughly. I'd go with a blended product, a leather conditioner.

TraderAlex1 says that while it is not horrible to use a combination cleaner/conditioner, it is better to use seperate products.

A big enemy of the leather is light, particularly UV, which is one reason why 303 protectant is popular on this site. Keeping your car garaged and covered when it is out of a garage is one of the best things you can do for the leather (and the car). This is also a reason to tint the windows (to cut down on the light and UV).

Lastly, NEVER use saddle soap on modern auto leather. Saddle soap does work on saddle leather, which is vegetable tanned. Most modern leather is chrome tanned and saddle soap does not work well with it. Use a leather cleaner.


Here is one of TraderAlex1's posts on the topic of conditioners:

#449 of 452 further thoughts on conditioning and a useful website by traderalex1 Jul 20, 2001 (03:39 pm):

Yes, I don't believe any of the nationaly branded leather cleaners and conditioners will harm the automotive leathers out there. Most of the automotive leathers in use in the world have their roots from the American Big Three automotive leather tanners, whose dominance of this market is overwhelming. And they got where they are by offering a product featuring superior technique and quality, not marketing muscle.
Keep in mind several points: Leather was once living tissue with natural fats and oils, so putting it back into the leather is not going harm it. The automotive leather market really started to develop in the late 1980's. Prior to that period, it was not unheard of for automakers to employ furniture leather for their automotive seating, with predictable (and disasterous) results. The American Three pioneered a technology to produce a dedicated car seat leather that would hold up to abuse, as well as teh elements. They assume that the typical owner will likely do little or nothing to care for his/her car seats. So your own efforts and willingness to fuss after the upholstery in your car is an enormous plus torwards keeping the seats looking good, for years. An opportunity to keep your vehicle out of the sun, or in a cool garage, is also quite helpful. Yes, you can hurt automotive leather, if you really work at it, but it is not necessarily an easy thing to do.
Most of you participating in this form have likely using some nationally branded set of cleaner and conditioner in your cars, for years.
If you were causing damage to your seats, you would have likely seen evidence of some finish degradation, after a time. I think most of you have generally been happy with your long experience in using your chosen brand of care product(s). I don't believe these concerns that were brought up on that other website, therefore, make a whole lot of sense. My guess is that your long term experience is your answer.

Note by Darbh: Alex says elsewhere that he spoke with friends at the Big Three and that had done actual reseach validating the above.

<strong class='bbc'>A Misconception Regarding Topcoats[/b]

Many years ago, manufacturors came up with a technique for topping leather with vinyl. This is a true "topcoat." The vinyl sits on top of the leather. Some seem to believe that the commonly encountered topcoats on auto leather sit on top of the leather, too. I did a search on the net and read several articles on top coats. Many of the articles discussed the fact that so-called "topcoats" actually <em class='bbc'>penetrate[/i] the leather. They are not just a thin coating that is just "on top" of the leather.

Next, there are many different kinds of TCs. Why? Each produces different effects. Some waterproof. Some decrease cracking. Some reduce wear, etc. AND, get this, a so-called top coat may not be a topcoat. Why? Because auto leather can have several so-called "topcoats" applied to it, one after the other. They ought to call them "final treatments" in order to avoid confusion.

<strong class='bbc'>The Source of Confusion[/b]

I do not know the factual basis for the belief that most topcoats are just on top of the leather, other than the unfortunate fact that they are <em class='bbc'>called[/i] "topcoats." I speculate that it is this mis-naming that is the source of confusion and the belief that the topcoats sit on top of the leather and can be worn off (of cource, TCs will degrade over time, whether they penetrate the leather or sit on top of it. Everything degrades eventually).


<strong class='bbc'>Is There an Authoritative Source for the Idea That "Conditioners Containing Oil Are Bad"[/b]

I have several times asked for a referal to a study supporting for the idea that the auto leather makers are wrong and leather conditioners containing oils damage the leather. No one seems to have a referal, except to a post on this site in which one of our members said he thought that conditioners damaged the top coats. This member's experience is at odds with the reported experience of the Big Three auto leather makers.

<strong class='bbc'>My Conclusion[/b]

Until we get refered to a definitive link, I have to think that the idea that oil-containing conditioners harm leather is an unsupported belief. It is just a rumor that has been passed from person to person. With this rumor spread around, now, "everyone knows" that oil-containing conditioners harm leather. But, no one can tell me the source of the idea, so I have to withhold belief in the idea until I get some evidence. For now, I catagorize it as an old wifes' tale.

I'm ready to change this view in a second if someone has evidence to the contrary! :)
 
great work darbh! It seems that many oil based cleaners arnt bad just not as effective as in vegtible tanned leather (or non-auto leather) I am one of the people going around saying you should use 303 on your leather, and i should say that my only two sources were DavidB and Ronk, two excelent sources though. Nevertheless, ignoring the whole idealology behind it i just go by results. I have tried saddle soap (long time ago), lexol and griots cleaner/303 combo. My results are that the Griots cleans better than the lexol, which foams up nicely but is quite mild. I did a test and cleaned the seats first with lexol cleaner, then used griots interior cleaner and it removed all the grime and dirt that the lexol left behind. Now, lexol conditioner, smells nice, spreads nicely and leaves a subtle shine. The leather felt a litlle greasy, but it wasnt sticky or anything. The leather wasnt much softer. The 303 left a more even, satin finish, and wasnt greasy. I also like 303s water repelency and uv protection. The sadle soap i used on my dads old car a while ago (before i was enlightened), and it did seem to dry out the leather. So as far as results go, i prefer the griots and 303, but i agree we need more comprehensive data to just jump to a conclusion about whats unsafe/safe for leather.
 
i too like the 303...ive only used it once so far...but i like it for many of the same reasons you listed.....the thing is....i really like the Pinnacle smell...and feel...so....i guess its pretty much still open to"what the exact answer is"......if there is one...IMHO...this thread could be noging for as long as we're all here....:D ...for now...i think its a combo....i just use soap/water and an MF to clean.then ill rotate with 303 or pinnalce conditoner til i figure it all out..........
 
For smell I love the Zaino leather stuff.



The 303 kinda smells like limberger cheese or my brother after eating chili and drinking beer.



DO what I do FLONI go by the local drive through Daquairi store and get ya a Pina Colada or Rum Runner and all smells start to smell good after 16 oz or so.
 
Don -- Thanks, buddy.

Brad -- good observations

FLONI -- good routine, but I would skip using the soap. I would wipe down with distilled water an MF regularly, then use a leather cleaner, such as Zaino leather cleaner, evey once in a while. Hey, I alternate a conditioner and 303, also!
 
:p or.....we're both nuts..........never used distilled water...i see that kind of water mentioned around here often.(for all different jobs)...what exactly is it that makes it ..."good":confused:
 
distilled water is spottless, ie no mineral deposits to deposit where ever you use it. like on my black leather interior, if I use plain water to clean it'll leave a salty haze (from the water softener) using distilled water is water in its purest form.



one thing to remember when rinsing out your sprayer/bottle whatever, is in your final rinse to use the distilled and pour it out, and to spray a couple of times to get the washing water out completely :D but relatively it's expensive for water.



technically we should do all our final rinses in distilled water, towels, applicators, mitts (our cars!) etc, anyone want to install a distilled water system in their garages? :p
 
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