Car Washing And The Ecology

I'll throw another idea in here - steam...



I know its nothing new, but after steaming my wheels & arches this weekend and achieving outstanding results with just a small amount of water, NO chemicals and nothing hitting the floor beyond a few drips of condensation, I think this is another way to compliment other wash methods. I know some (me too) sometimes struggle slightly with ONR and wheels/undercarriage, and I shall certainly be cracking out the steamer on the tougher jobs I face in this area :)
 
In Westchester, there are markings on the rain gutters that let you know where the water that flows into them goes. They have a picture of a fish on them, but I dont know what it means other than dont spill non-biodegradable substances in them. Not every rain gutter has this marking.



We have a full sewer system, there are no septic tanks here.



Dont know what I can do or shouldnt do.
 
Danase said:
The only thing not going to the sewers, or not supposed to be, is run off water from downspouts and gutter. Those used to be tied into the system but recent changes have forced people to disconnect them.
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I'm in a newer subdivision (finished in 1998) in Westland, MI. Our storm sewers are separate from the sanitary sewers, each house has a sump pump that discharges into the storm sewers, so all gutter runoff eventually ends up in the storm sewer. Like all new subdivisions around here, the storm sewers empty int a retention pond that holds the water temporarily for a day or two, and slowly discharges in to the main storm sewer.



While I'm one of only five or six people, out of a 120 home development, hat actually details their cars, about a fourth to a third of us wash our cars in our driveways, so there's definitely runoff. The cattails grow like crazy in the retention ponds, regardless of what goes down the storm sewers, and our home owners association gets a contractor every spring and fall to clear them out. Since the retention ponds and plant growth filter out a lot of what goes in the storm sewers, I don't worry much about how the car washing is affecting the ecology. Frankly, this subject doesn't concern me much. Danase, our state environmental authorities aren't too concerned about DIY car washing, because they're about much more concerned about fertilizer runoff getting in the storm sewers. Every spring we regularly get something in the mail form the city asking people to switch to organic fertilizers to protect the local waterways. No one around here has said anything about washing your car.
 
White95Max said:
Most municipal sewer systems actually can't. The Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District is famous for dumping billions of gallons of untreated sewage into Lake Michigan during heavy rain events. It has to pay a steep fine each time this happens, but they consider it cheaper than fixing the faults of the system. That would involve digging up half the city...
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Only one good thing about the MMSD, and there are darn few, is that their sewer system is a combined storm and septic system. They do therefore collect and treat both types of sewage on most days. Until it rains, that is. Then the advantage of having the combined system becomes a MAJOR disadvantage as raw sewage of all kinds is dumped into the lake. I find it unconscionable that Milwaukee uses Lake Michigan as their own litterbox. The DNR fines them a million bucks now and then but it would cost them tens of millions, perhaps billions to correct the system so they keep doing it. This becomes even more unsettling when you consider that hundreds of cities along the shores of Lake Michigan, including Milwaukee, draw their drinking water from the lake. Massive algae growth, fish dieoffs, stench, bacterial growth, closed beaches, are just a few signs that this is not sustainable, yet they blindly continue to pollute the lake.



I don't allow any of my washing/car care runoff to enter the storm sewers and have been doing so for over 30 years. I hope everyone takes a minute to analyze their process to be sure they are doing things to protect the environment.
 
Len_A said:
I'm in a newer subdivision (finished in 1998) in Westland, MI. Our storm sewers are separate from the sanitary sewers, each house has a sump pump that discharges into the storm sewers, so all gutter runoff eventually ends up in the storm sewer. Like all new subdivisions around here, the storm sewers empty int a retention pond that holds the water temporarily for a day or two, and slowly discharges in to the main storm sewer.



While I'm one of only five or six people, out of a 120 home development, hat actually details their cars, about a fourth to a third of us wash our cars in our driveways, so there's definitely runoff. The cattails grow like crazy in the retention ponds, regardless of what goes down the storm sewers, and our home owners association gets a contractor every spring and fall to clear them out. Since the retention ponds and plant growth filter out a lot of what goes in the storm sewers, I don't worry much about how the car washing is affecting the ecology. Frankly, this subject doesn't concern me much. Danase, our state environmental authorities aren't too concerned about DIY car washing, because they're about much more concerned about fertilizer runoff getting in the storm sewers. Every spring we regularly get something in the mail form the city asking people to switch to organic fertilizers to protect the local waterways. No one around here has said anything about washing your car.
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The state is actually concerned about it. What you get in the mail is just what your local agency decides to send out. I go to a lot of SEMCOG meetings and we have tons of material form SEMCOG to send out. Usually we send out the fertilization flyers and the downspout connection flyers. LOL We have a bunch of flyers available to the public though and one of them is actually a car wash flyer. With the combined sewers we don;t worry about it too much. lol



And yes, your home association should be leaving that growth in the retention pond to help filter the water better.
 
jdoria said:
In Westchester, there are markings on the rain gutters that let you know where the water that flows into them goes. They have a picture of a fish on them, but I dont know what it means other than dont spill non-biodegradable substances in them. Not every rain gutter has this marking.



We have a full sewer system, there are no septic tanks here.



Dont know what I can do or shouldnt do.
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We use these on the few sewers that drain to the creek and river. It's probably similar to what you see. It's to let people know that these catch basins go directly to a waterway / watershed and they shouldn't dump anything in it.





water_stormdrain.jpg
 
Danase said:
The state is actually concerned about it. What you get in the mail is just what your local agency decides to send out. I go to a lot of SEMCOG meetings and we have tons of material form SEMCOG to send out. Usually we send out the fertilization flyers and the downspout connection flyers. LOL We have a bunch of flyers available to the public though and one of them is actually a car wash flyer. With the combined sewers we don;t worry about it too much. lol



And yes, your home association should be leaving that growth in the retention pond to help filter the water better.
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The last thing I saw from our state's Department of Environmental Quality was from August, 2007, and addressed the community car washes. I couldn't find anything on DIY. Even with that bulletin, I haven't seen either a drop off in school and charity car washes, nor any of the advised protective measures in the state's bulletin. Maybe it hasn't filtered down to the local level yet. I haven't seen the flyer you may be referring to - I'm always interested to see what they come up with.
 
For Biodegradable … I think that is misleading as it is not about the chemical, it is about what that chemicals removing off the car. As an extreme example, using a Biodegradable APC in an engine detail … you get the point. It is about what is coming off the car is the issue.



Personally, I do not think the question is up to the Detailer. Too many have operated with the “I will not change unless someone forces me to mentality�. Go in and ask the head of Code enforcement what the City feels about the Mobile Detailing industry. You will not get a pretty picture. When they put out information, they use the most unflattering pictures to represent our industry.



The fact is that for California Detailers, I believe they will be forced to operate as a commercial car wash. The NPDES permit is under review and will come out this year with higher standards and greater restrictions. I believe you will be required to go to City Hall with your Detail Rig and do a demonstration. The only methods of cleaning cars that will receive a Permit (Not a License) will in fact be Water $mart Eco Detailing, by definition of new standards.



Then, and only then, can we as an industry sit across from the table of the Car Wash Industry, the Car Manufacturers, the Car Dealers, etc. with a position of respect.



In my opinion,



-jim
 
Len_A said:
The last thing I saw from our state's Department of Environmental Quality was from August, 2007, and addressed the community car washes. I couldn't find anything on DIY. Even with that bulletin, I haven't seen either a drop off in school and charity car washes, nor any of the advised protective measures in the state's bulletin. Maybe it hasn't filtered down to the local level yet. I haven't seen the flyer you may be referring to - I'm always interested to see what they come up with.
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Here is the car washing publication:

Ours to Protect
 
Danase,



Thanks, those are what is called BMP's Best Management Practices. They are neccessary and required by the EPA to comply with the NPDES Permit.



NPDES is reissued every 5 years. My guess is that the standards will increase, and then they have 1 year to impliment new BMP's.



-jim
 
Relaited said:
Too many have operated with the “I will not change unless someone forces me to mentality�. Go in and ask the head of Code enforcement what the City feels about the Mobile Detailing industry. You will not get a pretty picture. When they put out information, they use the most unflattering pictures to represent our industry.
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Jim, that is a super big point. A few years ago I was pouring some concrete and the code enforcement guy came by and found 15 feet of runoff in the gutter. He was going to write me a huge fine but I promised I'd have it cleaned up in a matter of minutes.
 
As I understand it, once concrete hits the ground it is a code violation. That is what I advocate with contaminants of detailing!



-jim
 
Jim,



I received another email today from a city official. He is looking into Vista and Calabasas. Thanks you to you and others, they have MY name in their heads as a legit business and I go Thursday for a demo and certification!



Rob Regan
 
ONLY in California do you have a "problem" with concrete hitting the ground and being considered a "contaminant" with the same "understanding" as that of detailing chemicals being used by mobile detailers in driveways.
Not sure how this thread is relevant today since it was posted in 2009!
Side note 1: Didn't Bob Regan have microfiber supply business?
Side note 2: Didn't some well-known Autopian have a signature stating, "I clean cars, not environment" I think that applies very well to this thread topic (UNLESS you live in California!)
 
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Bigpikle said:
great topic David, and one that has become close to my heart recently as well.



I also believe in ONR, thanks to the people on here, and have sold off all my conventional products and converted primarily to ONR. In the UK we have a different water situation with legislation, but no real differences in the mechanics of drainage. I recently 'walked' the journey of my surface water drains, and posted it on DW here (I hope you dont mind the link ;)) and although I live about as far as its possible to get from the sea in the UK, it still doesnt take long before the wash water from my driveway reaches the local wildlife :(



I'm also about to start trying a waterless product and dont see the math in quite as bad a light as you suggest.... My washing machine only uses 20 gallons per wash (still more than an ONR wash obviously) but it is also suggested I only need a few MF's per car, and my estimate is that I could run 1 wash cycle for 4-5 clean cars. In reality that is pretty much the same amount of wash water. The waste from my washing machine goes to sewage disposal and is readily broken down in there. I just havent proven to myself yet that this is a safe wash process, but we'll see.....



Great discussion and I look forward to following it and seeing the comments of others. I do believe that there will have to be change, and that in the UK, Europe and US its inevitable that change will come, and our age-old wash methods will soon become obsolete from legal, environmental and technological advances ;)
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Over 20 years ago, I believe, I went to using a Blower to dry vehicles, and then very little towel work needed to get the places where it drips off the lower parts.. The power of a good Metropolitan Master Blaster is amazing, and took my towel usage inventory down to way less than 75%.... It uses standard 110/120v power...
 
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