Car Wash!

[imported_Bunky]

As I read it, he is saying Dawn is bad because it contains salt but other car soaps do which he thinks is bad. It may sound like a bad idea but practically it may not make that much of a difference.

Dawn can have grease dissolving surfactants that car soaps do not that can strip wax but still have neutral pH.

 

[kc's]

I'll tear this one to shreds when I get back from my holiday, but i'll leave you with a little-something to ponder.



GOOD and BAD oil based products? Excuse me? If he's in R&D then I'd like to know the chemical reaction involved to instill morals into a surfactant before it does it's job.

However, as this guy claimed to be an "R&D line", he should know better than to make such accusations without any concrete and scientific evidence. Merely saying that there are good oils and bad oils is insufficient. In other words, "scientists" must back up their claims.

One way to back up claims is for "scientists" to publish their results in scientific journals where their findings can be checked and criticised by fellow scientists. Yet, this guy did not quote any scientific papers that back up his claims or even his own published paper(s) to fortify his claims. Merely quoting a friend who agrees with him is useless in any scientific work. If any scientific work cannot be published, it means that the work is seriously flawed.

PS I love using someones own words against them Boo Hoo

Hope you all had a good Christmas! I've done enough procrastination for today. It's time to pack the car for the road trip tomorrow morning artaaay2:

\\

Merry Christmas too

u misquote & misunderstood

there is 3 different responses from 3 different people
1st the car care manufacture spokes man
2nd quote a house wife
3rdly An R&D


app yr reply accordingly

 

[Dr.Az]

\\

Merry Christmas too

u misquote & misunderstood

there is 3 different responses from 3 different people
1st the car care manufacture spokes man
2nd quote a house wife
3rdly An R&D


app yr reply accordingly

Ahhh my bad! :doh: guess I needed that holiday more than I suspected!

Ok, I'll reply to all three individually then

 

[Dr.Az]

I've just tested my (manual) dishwashing liquid and what do you know... IT IS PH neutral! (PH 7) I would have never believed it, I was always under the impression that they are highly alkaline:-t

So now I'm wondering ... why do some high players in the detailing industry recommend using dishwashing liquid to remove polishing oils before applying a sealant? Why don't they just state to wash your car with regular car wash soap if they're not that different?
Zaino recommends Dawn and also Cquartz recommends a mix of 90% IPA with 10% Fairy liquid.

With this in mind I did a little digging comparing a shampoo, went for the Dodo Juice since the MSDS is easily available and it's a boutique shampoo and for Fairy Dishwashing liquid.
Some components are found in both: Sodium lauryl ether sulfate and ethoxylated alcohols.
Fairy also contains "alkyldimethyl amines oxide" which seems to be a foam booster from what I've found on the net.

So... I'm thinking that the main difference (if there's any) should be the quantity of surfactants, which I don't think we could ever find out

Last but not least, this is a fantastic topic! Boo Hoo

You'll find that your dishwashing powder that goes into your dishwashing machine is highly alkaline, whereas anything that comes into contact with FLESH will be neutral, although there are specific exceptions, like glycolic acid facial wash, highly alkaline 'hair removers' etc.

Quickly on SLES, I don't use it but this is mainly due to a business reason (that I shan't delve into), but it is a good little surfactant. It works ok and it foams great.
Amine oxides are great foam boosters!
Ethoxylated alcohols are my specialty, but I don't use too many of them lately due to my current product range. I would hesitate before using them around your car's exterior. However, this is only something I discovered from an engineer that I had the pleasure of working with... and therefore it is nothing I wish to disclose should I begin manufacturing my own car-wash products!!
Needless to say, it wouldn't only be my surfactant package that set my products apart; for starters no Sodium Chloride would go anywhere near my products!!

Why do any of the high end players in any industry recommend anything? it's generally because they can make a $ from it.
No one is business to do anything except make money - Coca Cola aren't in business to quench your thirst; they're in business to make money, quenching your thirst is how they do it.
I could probably go on a rant here about how this attitude has caused a lot of the problems seen in most of the western world now, but I shall leave it WELL AND TRULY alone. Whether I agree or disagree with the system is besides the point I'm making - the fact is that it IS the system we're in currently. I'm a scientist, not a politician ^#(^

 

[Dr.Az]

As I read it, he is saying Dawn is bad because it contains salt but other car soaps do which he thinks is bad. It may sound like a bad idea but practically it may not make that much of a difference.

Dawn can have grease dissolving surfactants that car soaps do not that can strip wax but still have neutral pH.

I'll continue answering posts over the next few days, but alas, bed awaits.

Just quickly, where are you getting your information from regarding salt not making much of a difference practically? I'm happy to devise a little experiment that you can all do at home to see the difference that salt makes. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted (on a technical level) that manufacturers use corrosive salts in their products to increase viscosity.

 

[imported_Bunky]

I'll continue answering posts over the next few days, but alas, bed awaits.

Just quickly, where are you getting your information from regarding salt not making much of a difference practically? I'm happy to devise a little experiment that you can all do at home to see the difference that salt makes. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted (on a technical level) that manufacturers use corrosive salts in their products to increase viscosity.

My question is there a practical amount where it does not really make a difference? In principle, salt is added to many foods and we know salt as a rule is not good for the body either.

I am just trying to understand the practical versus the theoretical. For example, sodium hydroxide is a powerful chemical but we find it in toothpaste!

 

[Dr.Az]

My question is there a practical amount where it does not really make a difference? In principle, salt is added to many foods and we know salt as a rule is not good for the body either.

I am just trying to understand the practical versus the theoretical. For example, sodium hydroxide is a powerful chemical but we find it in toothpaste!

First point: you don't have anything in your body quite like the polyacrylate coating on your car paint, nor the steel underneath it. Beware drawing likenesses between the two.

Second: It's been well known since the 60s that chlorides induce corrosion, primarily because concrete structures were falling down with all it's "reinforcing" steel rusted. De-icing salts would slowly seep through concrete, attack the passivated layer on the reinforcing steel and then rust it out.
On a side note, the stark majority of Australia's population is coastal and therefore we get chloride ingress primarily from the ocean; we don't use de-icing salts here.

Third: Regarding Sodium Hydroxide, you'll find that it is used as a neutralising agent in your toothpaste - very cheap and VERY effective - for acids in a formulation that have other uses. For example, a cheap surfactant that is frequently used is Dodecylbenzene Sulphonic Acid (AKA DDBSA, Linear Alkyl Benzene Sulphone Acid - LABS, and numerous other names). This is an acid AND has residual Sulphuric Acid left over from the manufacturing process. Upon adding the right amount of Sodium Hydroxide, you will have a perfectly neutral (pH 7) surfactant.
How this is listed on the label is entirely up to the manufacturer (and their real chemical knowledge), as they could list both ingredients or they could list the resulting (neutral) sodium salt.
In saying this, you might very well be using a caustic toothpaste and if this is the case, I recommend you stop immediately :lol:

 

[imported_tonipieleanu]

Thanks for the detailed explanations.
I hope you got a nice vacation Deck

Why do any of the high end players in any industry recommend anything? it's generally because they can make a $ from it.
No one is business to do anything except make money - Coca Cola aren't in business to quench your thirst; they're in business to make money, quenching your thirst is how they do it.
I could probably go on a rant here about how this attitude has caused a lot of the problems seen in most of the western world now, but I shall leave it WELL AND TRULY alone. Whether I agree or disagree with the system is besides the point I'm making - the fact is that it IS the system we're in currently. I'm a scientist, not a politician ^#(^

Fair point, but why would a company would want to make money for another one?!
Let's consider Zaino for a moment. I don't think their associated in any way with the makes of Dawn. Zaino has their own shampoo, right; why don't they say use Z7 to completely clean your car before applying Z2/Z5? Yet they say to use Dawn.
If Z7 and Dawn would clean similarly, wouldn't you recommend your own shampoo (boost your own sales), rather than a dishwashing liquid?

 

[imported_Bunky]

Another chemist I tend to respect claims the salt discussion is much about nothing, The amount of salt in a 1 oz concentrated soap and then diluted by water is no practical harm for paint.

What it seems to be is an easy way to make it appear soap is thicker than other soaps and increase the apparent lubricity,etc.

In the end it may not what you want in a soap but the salt itself is not the problem. It is not going to destroy the paint.

 

[Dr.Az]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm terribly sorry about my lack of replies of late. Some of you may of heard about the flooding in Queensland, Australia at the moment. We had an area of our country, the size of Texas, completely underwater. I believe they called it an "instant inland tsunami."
Although this has not directly been a problem in Sydney, I'm sure you can appreciate that the whole country is doing what it can to help out... especially considering that now another state (Victoria) is being subjected to the worst flooding in it's history also.
All my time had been taken up devising a 'storm-water safe', biodegradable, heavy duty, all-purpose 'green' cleaner for my company to donate to all the affected areas.
I even tried it on my car this afternoon and it came up quite well, even at a ridiculously low concentration of 1 part product to 400 parts water. Needless to say, I was quite chuffed :biggrin: It's still not exactly how I'd formulate a car-soap specifically, but worked relatively well anyway.
It also reminded me to get back on here and type out a reply or two

Quickly getting back to the salt in the car soap, Bunky.
I never said it harms paint. The problem I have with salt addition in the soap is if there is any exposed metal (ie paint chips, scratches, etc) on your car, the salt will radically increase the rate of corrosion of these metals.

Here is a question for your chemist, when he says "increases lubricity" I would like to know if he's using a strain gauge to measure the coefficient of friction difference with salt (and how he's set up that experiment to replicate soil on car paint) or if he's just using the marketing terminology and has no actual means of backing it up.
I have designed conveyor belt lubricants for multi-national beverage manufacturers here in Australia (Hint: their biggest product starts with C and rhymes with 'spoke'), so I have a fairly good grounding in lubricity. Can't recall any of our lubes using salt though.... perhaps we should bring this chemist in as a consultant?