Car Wash!

[imported_Larry A]

Dr AZ what about the alkaline of dish soaps verses the neutral of car wash soaps. Wont a alkaline soap do more damage to a sealant then a neutral soap ? I use soap to mean detergent.

 

[kc's]

Perhaps I should dispel this myth. I'm an R&D Chemist that designs cleaning chemicals (generally for the Food and Beverage industries, but have also made instrument sanitisers for hospitals, etc). I'm an avid car enthusiast also and have been looking into the car wash topic for some time now..

Hi Doc nice to meet you !
isnt sodium laureth sulfate dangerous as It is documented that it denatures skin proteins, which causes not only irritation, but also allows environmental contaminants easier access to the lower, sensitive layers of the skin.

So why is a dangerous chemical like sodium laureth sulfate used in our car shampoos?

 

[Audiguru]

Roots, you mean to tell me that you don't get you're detailing supplies at CVS? That's my go to place. I can get everything in one isle. I can get my Dawn for lightly soiled cars or Oxyclean for the filthy ones, my ShamWow drying towels and for paint correction I can also get my Simoniz Fix It Pro Pens there as well. But a sponge with soap already in it?! Man, CVS is a gold mine!!! lol.

lets not for get the quixx wax and "scratch remover"!

 

[imported_Bunky]

Here are few questing about soaps:

1, I have used many brands of soaps. They all tend to foam a little differently. What is the biggest variable in soaps that makes one soap different from another?

2. Suds is an indication of soap (amount of surfectants). Does more suds and how they last an indicator of a soap with more cleaning ability? What other aspects do suds have - good, bad, indifferent.

3. What determines a soaps "lubricity" (the tactile perception that one soap is slicker than other)? I got the hint that maybe salt can increase viscosity which could make it feel like it is slicker. Some soaps are watery and some a gelish.

 

[Dr.Az]

Dr AZ what about the alkaline of dish soaps verses the neutral of car wash soaps. Wont a alkaline soap do more damage to a sealant then a neutral soap ? I use soap to mean detergent.

Let's kill this myth too: sink detergents are (or at least SHOULD BE) neutral, whereas powder for your dishwashing machine is alkaline. It's a matter of how you get a clean; there is more than one way to skin (clean) a cat.
One can use alkalinity to 'cut' fats/proteins/etc down (actually, it has a slightly diff effect on proteins, regarding the isoelectric point and increasing solubility, but that doesn't matter) OR one can use surfactants to 'pick up' the soils and solubilise them in water. Look up Micelle on wikipedia; the second graphic should help visualise this.

Knowing this, and also that you can't put foam-producing surfactants into a closed container with high mechanical action (washing machines, both dish and laundry, and also CIP systems used in the Food & Beverage industry) they needed another solution: surfactants. High alkalinity, which works fantastically, also has the down-side that it works fantastically on flesh... hence a neutral pH (and a surfactant package to compensate) in dish soaps.

All the sink detergents that I ever designed had a neutral pH, for one simple reason: You're putting your hands into it!!!

 

[Dr.Az]

Hi Doc nice to meet you !
isnt sodium laureth sulfate dangerous as It is documented that it denatures skin proteins, which causes not only irritation, but also allows environmental contaminants easier access to the lower, sensitive layers of the skin.

So why is a dangerous chemical like sodium laureth sulfate used in our car shampoos?

Is it? I've never seen that documented! If you have credible links, then I'd be happy to read them for you and give an opinion. There is always more that I don't know about
I know it's a potential irritant - but that's the nature of surfactants - due to the fact that it picks up the oils on your skin and 'dries' it out. Any time I've heard of a 'gentle' cleaner for your skin, it'll have a standard surfactant like SLES (sodium laureth sulphate) coupled with a moisturiser or humectant (lanolin, glycerine, etc).
Dangerous? If it was "documented" to be dangerous, then it wouldn't be used frequently in toothpaste, would it? Chemicals need to be GRAS-listed for that (Generally Recognised As Safe). This is merely my speculation though, so please do send through what you know and I'd be more than happy to read it!

The other thing I've noticed on the forum is that there appears to be a lot of fear regarding your clear coat. You (the forum, in general) give it far less credit than it deserves. The worst thing for your paint-work, aside for contaminants, is UV-radiation. Yep, sunlight. Ever seen a plastic lawn chair fade over time? A vinyl dash start to crack? UV degradation, plain and simple.

If I was any good at drawing diagrams with the PC I'd do up an explanation for how the paintwork fades, due to UV degradation, which then causes light scattering - and then how a polish works by abrading your clear coat slightly. (Interestingly enough, it's the same reason that milk is white - 100% scattered light)
This aside, there is a very good reason we've been using acrylic resins for protective coatings for our cars - they're tough! A detergent is NEVER going to destroy it. Pollution and sunlight will chew through it though. My only concern with mild alkalinity is cutting through the wax coating.

 

[KrisMas]

This is quite a revelation, and I need to re-think my understanding of a simple car wash.

Subscribed.

 

[imported_Flash Gordon]

Perhaps I should dispel this myth. I'm an R&D Chemist that designs cleaning chemicals (generally for the Food and Beverage industries, but have also made instrument sanitisers for hospitals, etc). I'm an avid car enthusiast also and have been looking into the car wash topic for some time now. It seems to me that a lot of marketing BS is getting propagated as fact, even on this forum. THIS I'm not criticising at all, as you aren't chemists and have no other way of knowing besides what a marketing team put on their labels. I have, however, gotten annoyed with the marketing BS out there and thought I'd tear some of it down to better enlighten you all.

Dish soaps and car wash products use the same surfactant packages. Commonly, SLES (Sodium Lauryl Ether Sulphate), Dodecylbenzene sulphonic acid (neutralised with Sodium Hydroxide, Triethanolamine or Isopropanolamine). You'll find concentrations will vary, but not by much. There will be other additives that make a slight difference - but a couple of percent difference in the bottle become negligible once you pour a capful into a bucket and dilute it that far.
Am I saying dish soaps and car wash products are exactly the same?
No. They'll use different dyes and fragrances. Potentially some silicone emulsions or waxes for an increased shine. Maybe some optical brighteners too. With regards to the actual surfactants that do the cleaning - they'll be the same. And the salt...
My initial thought on the difference between sink detergents and car wash products was this: I know EVERYONE puts salt into their sink detergents - it bumps at the viscosity and makes it easier to work with (also makes them cheaper too). Car wash products won't use salt. (as it drastically increases corrosion rates)
Sadly, this isn't true. A simple silver nitrate titration confirmed it (but I don't want to go into detail about company names, needless to say that I started with 5 different products from a local auto store and now I've tested over 20 based on the shocking results, even from 'boutique' products). Even with some products that claimed to include "corrosion inhibitors." I hate to say it, but loading up with salt negates any inhibitor you add to the product.

There is no such thing as a 'harsh' surfactant or a 'soft' one (unless we're talking skin-care, but our skin is infinitely more sensitive than the polymeric clear coat on your car). They have slightly different effects but all work on the same principle. "Harsh detergent" is marketing BS. No detergent is going to dissolve your acrylic clear coat (the chemist that sits next to me worked for BASF in their automotive paints division for 10 years, he's now been with us designing industrial rust-proof paints for another 10 - he had a very good laugh when I showed him some of the stuff written online regarding this topic). You know what causes much more damage than a "harsh surfactant" to your clear coat? UV Degradation. Paint laboratories world-wide use a UV chamber to try to destroy their paints (so they can prove how long they last) - what they don't do is soak the paint samples in sink detergent.

In saying all this, I know that there are SOME quality manufacturers out there that don't use salt. A general rule of thumb will be to look for the companies that charge good $ for a product but don't seem to have the fancy packaging to match the price tag. That fancy packaging and labelling costs more than the chemical in the bottle.

If you have any specific questions about surfactants, surface tension, dirt removal, corrosion etc feel free to ask. I'm trying not to turn this into a chemistry lesson (as even I find that boring!) yet I'm happy to go into detail should someone require it.

You hit the nail on the head "advertise."

Depends what sort of sealants they use. Happy to back this up with data from chemical manufacturers too (ie Wacker, highly regarded German manufacturer of silicones).

You have traditional waxes, and numerous types of silicones. The silicones are the ones that can be designed as detergent resistant. Particularly the "reactive-type" amino-functional silicones. These bond with the surface of your paint and then cross-link with each other too. High detergent resistance!

With respect to car soaps vs dish soaps: they use a very similar surfactant package and therefore will clean in a very similar manner. If your sealant is detergent resistant then it'll resist dish soap AND car soap. If it's not, then either one will strip it.

Let's kill this myth too: sink detergents are (or at least SHOULD BE) neutral, whereas powder for your dishwashing machine is alkaline. It's a matter of how you get a clean; there is more than one way to skin (clean) a cat.
One can use alkalinity to 'cut' fats/proteins/etc down (actually, it has a slightly diff effect on proteins, regarding the isoelectric point and increasing solubility, but that doesn't matter) OR one can use surfactants to 'pick up' the soils and solubilise them in water. Look up Micelle on wikipedia; the second graphic should help visualise this.

Knowing this, and also that you can't put foam-producing surfactants into a closed container with high mechanical action (washing machines, both dish and laundry, and also CIP systems used in the Food & Beverage industry) they needed another solution: surfactants. High alkalinity, which works fantastically, also has the down-side that it works fantastically on flesh... hence a neutral pH (and a surfactant package to compensate) in dish soaps.

All the sink detergents that I ever designed had a neutral pH, for one simple reason: You're putting your hands into it!!!

Is it? I've never seen that documented! If you have credible links, then I'd be happy to read them for you and give an opinion. There is always more that I don't know about
I know it's a potential irritant - but that's the nature of surfactants - due to the fact that it picks up the oils on your skin and 'dries' it out. Any time I've heard of a 'gentle' cleaner for your skin, it'll have a standard surfactant like SLES (sodium laureth sulphate) coupled with a moisturiser or humectant (lanolin, glycerine, etc).
Dangerous? If it was "documented" to be dangerous, then it wouldn't be used frequently in toothpaste, would it? Chemicals need to be GRAS-listed for that (Generally Recognised As Safe). This is merely my speculation though, so please do send through what you know and I'd be more than happy to read it!

The other thing I've noticed on the forum is that there appears to be a lot of fear regarding your clear coat. You (the forum, in general) give it far less credit than it deserves. The worst thing for your paint-work, aside for contaminants, is UV-radiation. Yep, sunlight. Ever seen a plastic lawn chair fade over time? A vinyl dash start to crack? UV degradation, plain and simple.

If I was any good at drawing diagrams with the PC I'd do up an explanation for how the paintwork fades, due to UV degradation, which then causes light scattering - and then how a polish works by abrading your clear coat slightly. (Interestingly enough, it's the same reason that milk is white - 100% scattered light)
This aside, there is a very good reason we've been using acrylic resins for protective coatings for our cars - they're tough! A detergent is NEVER going to destroy it. Pollution and sunlight will chew through it though. My only concern with mild alkalinity is cutting through the wax coating.

Finally, I have scientific data that proves Dawn does not dry out your seals/harm paint

I've always been able to tell who the "Kool-Aid" drinkers were whenever this subject has been brought up in the past

Thanks Doc :-B

 

[imported_detailchick]

I dont care what anyone says ,theres no way Im using dish soap to wash my vehicle
( no offense Dr AZ!)
Flash, you can call me a koolaide drinker if you want to LOL:tongue:

 

[BillE]

Now, THAT was/is a great read!

Thanx Doc.

Bill

 

[Trans1998AM]

This is just blowing my mind. but i would be curious to hear the explanations to the post BUNKY posted, as I have noticed the same things to what he said as well.

 

[imported_Bunky]

Finally, I have scientific data that proves Dawn does not dry out your seals/harm paint

What I got out of part of this that Dawn has salts (supposedly not the best for paint?) but also it surprised him that some car wash soaps did as well. I got confirmation that Optimum Car Wash does not contain salts but I also got some answers on lubricity as well.

 

[kc's]

some interesting respond form a car manufacture spokes man, average mary who cares for her car & fellow enthusiast

Dish detergent is highly effective at stripping grease, and if it strips grease it will strip wax. A quality car wash shampoo won't strip wax. That alone should tell you which product you want to use to wash your car.

Now, we've said this before and we'll say it again - using dish detergent to wash your car is not going to destroy your paint, plastic, vinyl, rubber, etc if you follow each wash with a full compliment of wax, vinyl and rubber dressing, etc. We've got a forum member who has basically proven this since his father used nothing but dish soap on his car, but otherwise babied the car with very regular surface treatments.

But the big problem is for the "average" consumer who never does anything more than wash the car - they can't be bothered with any of the "details' of detailing and they won't regularly apply a dressing to the trim, vinyl, etc. Then they wonder why all that trim has turned white in a couple of years. We've seen these cars come into our garage where the plastic cowl is almost white, and it comes from neglect. And neglect isn't just not dressing it, it's using products that can speed up the drying out of the material.

People think of things like vinyl, leather, paint, etc to be "dry" but in truth they aren't. Unless you let them "dry out". Ever seen a piece of leather that's really "dried out"? Looks a bit different than the seats in your new car, doesn't it? Ever worked on really dried out paint? It pulls the lubricants right out of the paint cleaner or compound you're working on and the product gums up on the surface. Ever try to apply a pure polish to a dried up gel coat? The gel coat color is instantly revitalized, but the pure polish is just soaked up by the finish.

Paint, and especially gel coat, is actually quite porous and it will take in a bit of these oils. Over time, it can, will and does dry out if not taken care of. There is no doubt that a modern clear coat is far more durable and resilient than earlier single stage lacquer paints, but they are not impervious to the ravages of time and the environment.

We're huge fans of simply following a "best practices" philosophy when taking car of your car, so we'll finish this the same way we started: Dish detergent is highly effective at stripping grease, and if it strips grease it will strip wax. A quality car wash shampoo won't strip wax. That alone should tell you which product you want to use to wash your car.

more

My understanding of surfactants is that even though petroleum products, oils, etc. will not be soluble in water, the surfactants create an emulsion in which the oil particles can be carried away in the solution of the water and surfactants. But this chemical reaction may take place quickly or slowly depending on the formulation. Both car soap and dish soap need to remove oils and grease, road film, etc. But car soaps need to find a balance of stopping there, i.e. remove the bad oil-based products without removing the good oil-based products, i.e., the wax or sealant. Therefore, the surfactant action must be relatively gentle, just enough to do its job but no more. Since dishes have no waxes or sealants to worry about, dish soaps can work more harshly and quickly, and are formulated as such.

Secondly, car soaps may contain conditioning oils designed to nourish the paint, just as hair shampoos may contain conditioning oils to nourish the hair. There really isn't anything a dish soap needs to condition, other than maybe your hands that are doing the washing without gloves. So sure, you can and will remove oils from your hair or your car paint by using a product designed to clean dishes, but you may remove too much oil and need to perform a second process to replace them.

One last thing to mention is that the paint is not the only thing to worry about when washing the car. There are also rubber/plastic seals that you don't want to dry out.

In essence, the best advice one can give is use a shampoo formulated for cars to wash cars, use a shampoo formulated for hair to wash hair, use a shampoo formulated for dishes to wash dishes.

And what about if you want to wash a car as well as remove the remaining wax or sealant to have a clean base for reapplying the wax? Again, the best advice one can give is to use a product formulated for that purpose.

Will your car explode if you don't use the most appropriate product? No.

Will you save money? I purchased a gallon of Gold Class Shampoo for about 12 dollars. I don't think Dawn is any cheaper than that.

Will you do irreparable harm to the car's paints and rubber and plastic seals? Maybe not, but you may have to follow the washing with a "polish" or conditioning step with proper sealants for the rubber, so your process may take more time.

So my take is, it is a free country. All we can do is offer advice, but the world own't end if you choose to do things differently.

last respond

Thanks for the interesting share. The article is obviously written with some contempt on the marketing hypes and false claims by car shampoo makers.

However, as the poster claimed to be an R&D (Research & Development) chemist, he should know better than to make such accusations without any concrete and scientific evidence. Merely saying that he did some tests and found that car soaps and dish soaps are essentially the same is insufficient. In other words, scientists must back up their claims.

One way to back up claims is for scientists to publish their results in scientific journals where their findings can be checked and criticised by fellow scientists. Yet, the original poster did not quote any scientific papers that back up his claims or even his own published paper(s) to fortify his claims. Merely quoting a friend who agrees with him is useless in any scientific work. If any scientific work cannot be published, it means that the work is seriously flawed.

The original poster did raise an interesting point for us to ponder, but unless he shares his results (and which can be checked by other scientists), whatever he says should be taken with considerable doubt. That's one way how science works to distinguish nonsense from facts.

P.S.
I am in the R&D line too.

hi Doc as for SLS
So why is a dangerous chemical like sodium laureth sulfate used in our car shampoos?

The answer is simple - it is cheap. The sodium laureth sulfate found in most of our cleaners is exactly the same as you would find in a car wash or even a garage, where it is used to degrease car engines.

In the same way as it dissolves the grease on car engines, SLES also dissolves the oils on your skin, which can cause a drying effect. It is also well documented that it denatures skin proteins, which causes not only irritation, but also allows environmental contaminants easier access to the lower, sensitive layers of the skin.

http://www.natural-health-information-centre.com/sodium-laureth-sulfate.html

http://dxbunderground.com/blog/blog1.php/ex/dangerous-shampoo

 

[Dr.Az]

Wow guys! I'm away for a couple of days and I've got more questions! Love it!
Ok, i'll tackle this one quickly, before I pack the car to drive up the coast for a much needed holiday and I'll hit the rest when I get back

Here are few questing about soaps:

1, I have used many brands of soaps. They all tend to foam a little differently. What is the biggest variable in soaps that makes one soap different from another?

2. Suds is an indication of soap (amount of surfectants). Does more suds and how they last an indicator of a soap with more cleaning ability? What other aspects do suds have - good, bad, indifferent.

3. What determines a soaps "lubricity" (the tactile perception that one soap is slicker than other)? I got the hint that maybe salt can increase viscosity which could make it feel like it is slicker. Some soaps are watery and some a gelish.

Fair questions.
Let's start with 2. Suds is NOT an indication of amount of surfactants, more suds does not necessarily mean more clean either.
The fact that chemical companies (that sell to manufacturers of car wash, sink detergent, shampoos etc) will have a vast array of surfactants should indicate that they're all different - to an extent. The fact that some of these are listed as "foam boosters" should indicate something about our perception of "foam = clean" and that is: it's your perception.
Interestingly enough, the latest project I've been tasked with demonstrates that you can get detergents that clean marvellously WITHOUT foaming. I've been asked to design a radiator de-oiler. You cannot put foaming detergents into a 'closed' system (radiator, dish-washing machine, clothes washer, etc) and I'd wager some of us have seen the results of doing just this (and would then have had to mop up the resultant suds from your kitchen). So, us chemical-magicians will blend surfactants that have surface tension attributes that limit foam.

...and without going into too much detail regarding my new trade-secret :-B ... It's very possible to even get BETTER detergency without foam, but no one will pay money for a car-wash that doesn't foam up

In saying that, generally the surfactants used in a consumer environment (sink detergent/car wash/shampoo) will begin to lose foam once they've absorbed everything they can... for example, if you've ever washed A LOT of dishes by hand, after a while you'll notice the sink is no longer full of foam. All your surfactants are in the oil/grease and not producing foam anymore.

(here I was hoping for a quick reply, but I love this stuff )

Question 1.
I could go on with all sorts of info about water hardness, nonionics/anionics, different blends of builders and other factors, but they biggest variable is: You, the user.
Did you WEIGH out the exact same amount of detergent every time? Was it applied in the exact same conditions (weather, humidity, temperature, sponge/foam-gun, time)? Was the level of foam actually measured? Were you having a good day or a bad day?

Question 3.
A few different factors. Salt will be the big one. Different amounts of solvency too and which particular surfactants they've blended and different levels.

 

[Dr.Az]

Finally, I have scientific data that proves Dawn does not dry out your seals/harm paint

I've always been able to tell who the "Kool-Aid" drinkers were whenever this subject has been brought up in the past

Thanks Doc :-B

We don't have Kool-Aid in Australia
(I get the reference though!)

 

[Dr.Az]

I dont care what anyone says ,theres no way Im using dish soap to wash my vehicle
( no offense Dr AZ!)
Flash, you can call me a koolaide drinker if you want to LOL:tongue:

No, that's my point - you shouldn't use sink-detergent, as it can cause rust. I'm just shocked to find out how many car-wash manufacturers care more about their bottom-line $$ rather than your car.

 

[Dr.Az]

I'll tear this one to shreds when I get back from my holiday, but i'll leave you with a little-something to ponder.

Both car soap and dish soap need to remove oils and grease, road film, etc. But car soaps need to find a balance of stopping there, i.e. remove the bad oil-based products without removing the good oil-based products, i.e., the wax or sealant.

GOOD and BAD oil based products? Excuse me? If he's in R&D then I'd like to know the chemical reaction involved to instill morals into a surfactant before it does it's job.

However, as this guy claimed to be an "R&D line", he should know better than to make such accusations without any concrete and scientific evidence. Merely saying that there are good oils and bad oils is insufficient. In other words, "scientists" must back up their claims.

One way to back up claims is for "scientists" to publish their results in scientific journals where their findings can be checked and criticised by fellow scientists. Yet, this guy did not quote any scientific papers that back up his claims or even his own published paper(s) to fortify his claims. Merely quoting a friend who agrees with him is useless in any scientific work. If any scientific work cannot be published, it means that the work is seriously flawed.

PS I love using someones own words against them Boo Hoo

Hope you all had a good Christmas! I've done enough procrastination for today. It's time to pack the car for the road trip tomorrow morning artaaay2:

 

[imported_tonipieleanu]

All the sink detergents that I ever designed had a neutral pH, for one simple reason: You're putting your hands into it!!!

I've just tested my (manual) dishwashing liquid and what do you know... IT IS PH neutral! (PH 7) I would have never believed it, I was always under the impression that they are highly alkaline:-t

So now I'm wondering ... why do some high players in the detailing industry recommend using dishwashing liquid to remove polishing oils before applying a sealant? Why don't they just state to wash your car with regular car wash soap if they're not that different?
Zaino recommends Dawn and also Cquartz recommends a mix of 90% IPA with 10% Fairy liquid.

With this in mind I did a little digging comparing a shampoo, went for the Dodo Juice since the MSDS is easily available and it's a boutique shampoo and for Fairy Dishwashing liquid.
Some components are found in both: Sodium lauryl ether sulfate and ethoxylated alcohols.
Fairy also contains "alkyldimethyl amines oxide" which seems to be a foam booster from what I've found on the net.

So... I'm thinking that the main difference (if there's any) should be the quantity of surfactants, which I don't think we could ever find out

Last but not least, this is a fantastic topic! Boo Hoo

 

[imported_kakeuter]

Let me first say, Thank You, this is a great subject for someone like me who really cares about learning this stuff.

I guess what I am confused with, still, is the actual results seen after washing a protected car with two different types of soap.

Once I have my ride sealed and wax to my liking (major beading action), I can sustain the protection (or at least I think I am based on the beading action still present) by using a car wash soap like Meguiar's Gold Class for routine maintenance washes.

On the other hand, if my vehicle is sealed and protected and I choose to use Dawn Ultra Concentrated or Citrus Wash and Gloss, the protection seems to diminish (less beading and more sheeting).

This is why, obviously, I chose to use the Gold Class for a maintenance wash and Dawn or CWG to strip the LSP to prepare for paint correction or reapplying sealant/wax fresh.

Maybe I'm missing something.

-Kody-

 

[imported_detailchick]

No, that's my point - you shouldn't use sink-detergent, as it can cause rust. I'm just shocked to find out how many car-wash manufacturers care more about their bottom-line $$ rather than your car.

Thanks Dr Az for clarifying that , I thought you were saying something different.

Koolaide is a super sugary drink that stains carpets red and usually only kids drink :biggrin:

Have a nice vaca! :smile: