Car Wash Industry aims to stop driveway washing

Let's try and address this point by point:



"During my career I've had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I've called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing."



According to whom? You? I have heard several calls for actual scientific data to back up people's claims so far - where are yours? Or should I just assume you are correct because you talk to some wastewater facility employees?



"Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern."



Interesting because there are communities all over North America that are concerned with just that. I don't dispute that all the pollutants you listed are cause for concern - prove that watse water from car washing is not and we'll be done here.



I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren't calling it a problem, then just who is?



"These guys" are not the guys doing the research are they? They are charged with implementing environmental policy - nothing more. I challenge you to find one of your "wastewater managers" that actually has one ounce of say so with respect to research and policy concerns.



"No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with."



I think you need to stop taking your paranoia pills. No one is "out to get you" here or any other "little guy". I cannot really see that anyone has anything to gain from stopping you from washing your car and discharging the water into the storm drain. Please explain how someone is going to get rich off this "scam". It's about cleaning up and preserving the water supply here - nothing else.



"Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren't sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it's ugly head. This is definitely one of those times."



IF you honestly believe that washing the pollutants off your car at home or in the street and allowing the pollutants and soaps/cleaners/detergents run off into the water supply is not polluting than I don't know what to say. Maybe you aren't sticking your head in the sand - perhaps somewhere else? All sarcasm aside, I don't want to take it to that level. Your individual carwash may be insignificant as a single source of pollution - that's true. The MILLIONS of carwashes done every day combined are not - that's a fact. If you simply DO NOT COMPREHEND THIS then there is simply no point in debating this with you any further.
 
TDMAN said:
Thank you and well put. Shine shop, you need to get a clue. Nobody's forcing you to wash your car in your driveway. If it personally bothers you, stop doing it. But get your facts right. You don't have any backing or proof for what you are talking about. Plus, there is nothing more annoying than a jack*ss like you who will talk about the "problem" but never offer a solution. I think you need to get your head out of the sand. [/QUOTE



Respectfully maybe you should grab a clue? I do not wash my car in my driveway and that is the whole point. I wash my vehicle in a controlled environment where the waste water is collected and disposed of properly. As a matter of record I have proof and have posted said proof. You simply choose not to belive it because it conflicts with your wishes to avoid responsibility for your small part of the polluting problem. I can spend countless hours collecting more data to reinforce my position but I already know that would be wasted upon those like yourself who CHOOSE not to believe what they see not because it is wrong but because they don't like it.

As for me being a *******, you have every right to offer up your opinion and thanks so much for being so articulate in so doing. However, you offered no constructive commentary with respect to the problem or a possible solution. You simply continue to deny the problem and deflect blame to "the real offenders". It's not my job to come up with a solution for you or anyone else. I have my solution and I comply with the law and feel content that I am doing my part to keep the water supply clean both as a business and a citizen.
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Anthony Orosco said:
Shineshop, I believe si speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony
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I do not reclaim my water Anthony. I am fortunate in that my building has the appropriate water disposal setup (sand trap, oil sererator) and the remaing water is then treated by my city's sanitary sewer system as per regulations. Washing cars is not a major part of our business and as such we neither use a lot of water nor produce significant runoff. Does it cost me a lot of money to do so? Depends on how you look at it I guess. We pay a hefty premium each month for water and a sanitary sewer surcharge plus must pump our holding tanks as needed and dispose properly as per the law requires. If we did not have this setup I would be dealing with the issue accordingly in spite of the fact that there is zero enforcement here without a complaint. It's part of the cost of doing business.



It's also not about me being pissed about mobile detailers or guys undercutting my prices. Irrelevant in my neck of the woods due to the weather. I have seen one mobile guy try to start up a business up here and I think he lasted 2 months (and that was in the summer). Let's put that argument to rest. I don't make my money from washing cars so I have NO vested interest in this issue other than feeling it is the right thing to do. Do we wash cars? Yes. It makes up like 0.05 % of my business though.
 
I'll try to address you back point by point:



ShineShop said:
Let's try and address this point by point:



"During my career I've had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I've called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing."



According to whom? You? I have heard several calls for actual scientific data to back up people's claims so far - where are yours? Or should I just assume you are correct because you talk to some wastewater facility employees?
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I tried researching any scientific data regarding the contaiminate of fresh water bodies by people washing their cars, and found nothing. I found plenty of documents from commercial car wash industry trade groups, advocating the banning of driveway car washing, read them, and found that they had not quoted any scientific studies. I'm not saying there aren't any - I'm saying the industry tradeg groups pushing for the ban aren't quoting any.





"Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern."



Interesting because there are communities all over North America that are concerned with just that. I don't dispute that all the pollutants you listed are cause for concern - prove that watse water from car washing is not and we'll be done here.
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Not here in Michigan, not in Ohio or Indiana. I asked a friend to check in Illinois (He lives in Chicago) and he came up with nothing. We found plenty of comments in the press very, very concerned with Lawn fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. Some commetns on oil changes. Nothing on Car washes.



I also did an internet search for anything I possiblely missed. The only concern ever expressed had to do with water conservation - lawn watering bans included with them, something we have had on occassion here in the Detroit area, but nothing regarding pollution, PERIOD.



Another thing: I understated how much water a quart of oil will contaiminate. The stated industry figures is from 250,000 gallons to a million gallons.





I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren't calling it a problem, then just who is?



"These guys" are not the guys doing the research are they? They are charged with implementing environmental policy - nothing more. I challenge you to find one of your "wastewater managers" that actually has one ounce of say so with respect to research and policy concerns.
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True, they are implementing policy. Are you saying, that as a part of their duties as municple wate water treatment plant managers (City Department Directors in most cases), they aren't privy to the latest research? Each and every one I called on had volumnes of EPA reports in their office as a matter of course. I challenge you to know what you're talking about before making a statement like that.





"No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with."



I think you need to stop taking your paranoia pills. No one is "out to get you" here or any other "little guy". I cannot really see that anyone has anything to gain from stopping you from washing your car and discharging the water into the storm drain. Please explain how someone is going to get rich off this "scam". It's about cleaning up and preserving the water supply here - nothing else.
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One, the sarcasm isn't appreciated. Two, it was SState of Michigan government officals who made the charge that tailpipe emmsion testing was aimed at the "little guy" because of the large company and industry trade group lobbyists protecting the large polutors.



And no one said "rich" necissarily, but it stands to reason that if you ban driveway washing , someone else is going to financially benefit.





"Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren't sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it's ugly head. This is definitely one of those times."



IF you honestly believe that washing the pollutants off your car at home or in the street and allowing the pollutants and soaps/cleaners/detergents run off into the water supply is not polluting than I don't know what to say. Maybe you aren't sticking your head in the sand - perhaps somewhere else? All sarcasm aside, I don't want to take it to that level. Your individual carwash may be insignificant as a single source of pollution - that's true. The MILLIONS of carwashes done every day combined are not - that's a fact. If you simply DO NOT COMPREHEND THIS then there is simply no point in debating this with you any further.
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Someone else pointed this out:



Rain. Rain will also do the same thing that washing the car in your driveway will do. And the rain off buildings is more of a concern than rain off cars or car washing. Ford Motor Company built a new truck plant in Dearborn, with the world largest LICVING roof, to use the plants to capture and filter the rainfall. Link 1 Link 2



And as I stated earlier, there is little to no documentation of concern over even the millions of individual car washes....except the self-serving pressreleases and trade publications articles from the commercial car wash industry themselves. As they would be the beneficiary of such a driveway washing ban, anything they say is automatically suspect.
 
ShineShop & I briefly exchanged emails, and he asked why I don't hit the quarter car wash to wash mine there, and I think I should also post my reply (& elaborate on it a bit more) here:



Hit the quarter car wash instead of my driveway. Let's see if I can make my point brief:



Never.



Most of the quarter car washes around here not only have tossed people out for bringing their own buckets, they've gone to the trouble of calling the cops when they catch you a second or a third time. And NONE of the five in my area (I'm in Westland, on the westside of Detroit, if you look at a map of area Detroit, look for I-96, I-275, and M-14, and you're in the area) recycle the water (that I'm aware of)- they are all either hooked into the storm sewer system or the sanitary sewer system, and that includes a brand new one 1/2 mile from my subdivision.



And again, the whole SouthEast Michigan area is under a federal court order regarding water treatment.



I have plenty of experience in environmental sales, and the research I did after this thread started has only made me angrier:



Nothing but industry trade association articles without a shred of scientific evidence quoted. More & more it looks like an attempt from the commercial car wash industry to lobby for a driveway car washing ban that will financially benefit them. Benefit them, and take away retail sales of some of the detailing supplies, from retailers that vary from Walmart & Target, to Autozone and smaller regional autoparts stores, to on-line retailers.



Yea, I'm going to look at this idea of a driveway car wash ban with an open mind. NOT.
 
I'd like to thank Forum Management for keeping this thread in the Detailing forum where it can remain active. I posted a similar thread at Meguiars and within a day they moved it to the "Hot Tub" forum...because this topic isn't "detailing related" .. and of course the thread died within 2 days or so.



I agree with Len_A that what we need is some actual testing. Some real numbers that tell us what is actually in the run-off and in what quantity. I also agree with him that if we need reformulated shampoos to be more responsible about washing...then that's what we should do..not ban the washing machines...so to speak.



Does anybody reading this forum have or know anybody who has a containment system that will allow for collection of run-off..and Len_A can your friends in the treatment plants do the testing?



Peter
 
Peter Crowl said:
I'd like to thank Forum Management for keeping this thread in the Detailing forum where it can remain active. I posted a similar thread at Meguiars and within a day they moved it to the "Hot Tub" forum...because this topic isn't "detailing related" .. and of course the thread died within 2 days or so.



I agree with Len_A that what we need is some actual testing. Some real numbers that tell us what is actually in the run-off and in what quantity. I also agree with him that if we need reformulated shampoos to be more responsible about washing...then that's what we should do..not ban the washing machines...so to speak.



Does anybody reading this forum have or know anybody who has a containment system that will allow for collection of run-off..and Len_A can your friends in the treatment plants do the testing?



Peter
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Peter, outside of what ShineShop said his building has (sand trap, oil sererator), I've never heard of a containment system, and I for one would be interesting in one. But my drive way has a real nice slope to it, and containment would be REAL interesting...lol.



I've been out of the environmental side of the industrial sales business for a little while, but I'll make some phone calls tomorrow (got surprised to see a few familar names in the paper a few weeks ago), and see if anyone will do some testing. I can tell you right now - ain't gonna be no driveway car washing around here (Detroit) for while. We still got snow on the damn ground. I hate winter.



I don't know about the rest of you guys, but the only time I see any municipal or state government comments about driveway car washing is during a hot summer, because of water conservation. In all fairness to Shine Shop, Ontario, and Canada in general, tends to be a more like Europe when it comes to environmental issues, so maybe it's an issue up there. I'd email my family in Toronto to ask, but frankly, they think I'm nuts for the amount of detailing I do, and probably won't even be concerned about the issue (hell, to be honest, the only issue they give a darn about is the NHL lockout - they're going through hockey withdrawl).



I'm pretty certain that the car wash soap is all low phosphate, because that was an EPA issue with all soap back in the 1970's. The of anything really substantial even mentioned on the web, outside of what Peter found mentioning California, and the few other pieces I found that were commercial car wash trade group publications, makes me very suspious. Maybe ShineShop is right, maybe I'm a touch paranoid.



Then again, part of my sales training over the years was to: A) Turn a negative into a positive (in this case environmental regulation being the businesses "negative"), and B) Go after your competition with this new "positive",especially if they can't respond in kind (in this car, we do-it-yourselfers being the primary comeptition for the commercial carwash industry). It just looks like a case of an industry group trying to use a non-issue, or a low-priority issue to change the law to suit them. When my old employer would introduce some new nonasbestos gasket, you should have seen the guys drag out all the Clean Air Act regs, and put it in our training material, and quote the regs in the sales literature. Then our customers would prove to us, using electronic sniffers, that our product might be good, but that the hype was a non-issue, and we were no better performers than our competition.



If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck........
 
"I tried researching any scientific data regarding the contaiminate of fresh water bodies by people washing their cars, and found nothing. I found plenty of documents from commercial car wash industry trade groups, advocating the banning of driveway car washing, read them, and found that they had not quoted any scientific studies. I'm not saying there aren't any - I'm saying the industry tradeg groups pushing for the ban aren't quoting any."



The trade groups didn't create the rules but I see that since their members are being regulated they want even handed enforcement for everyone based on the laws that are on the books. Don't like it? Get involved and change the law.





"Not here in Michigan, not in Ohio or Indiana. I asked a friend to check in Illinois (He lives in Chicago) and he came up with nothing. We found plenty of comments in the press very, very concerned with Lawn fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. Some commetns on oil changes. Nothing on Car washes."



15 seconds and came up with all kinds of communities looking into the issue: http://www.carwash.com/keyword.asp?mode=2&keyword=water+runoff



"Another thing: I understated how much water a quart of oil will contaiminate. The stated industry figures is from 250,000 gallons to a million gallons."



We're talking about washwater runoff from washing your car at home - relevance? I can't remember the last time I needed to rinse a quart of oil off my car's paint.



"True, they are implementing policy. Are you saying, that as a part of their duties as municple wate water treatment plant managers (City Department Directors in most cases), they aren't privy to the latest research? Each and every one I called on had volumnes of EPA reports in their office as a matter of course. I challenge you to know what you're talking about before making a statement like that."



I would love to know exactly what you know about my background that allows you to discredit my experience. You admittedly do not work in the wastewater management industry but do business with them. The information you have gleaned from "insiders" is unsubstantiated at best and lacks any teeth. I must assume that these facilities would have access to any and all information from the EPA but it doesn't mean they make use of it. As you yourself stated - these facilities pollute themselves so you yourself have already discredited them as a reliable source of proper water management.



"One, the sarcasm isn't appreciated. Two, it was SState of Michigan government officals who made the charge that tailpipe emmsion testing was aimed at the "little guy" because of the large company and industry trade group lobbyists protecting the large polutors."



Once again we are talking about water runoff here - not air quality so what exactly is the relevance here to tailpipe testing? Different issue entirely.



"And no one said "rich" necissarily, but it stands to reason that if you ban driveway washing , someone else is going to financially benefit."



I don't see people all of a sudden rushing out to the carwashes causing a sudden and significant financial benefit to anyone. People who wash their cars at home do so because they:

- like doing it (people like those here on Autopia)

- don't like commercial carwashes

- are too cheap to pay to get their car washed



"Someone else pointed this out:



Rain. Rain will also do the same thing that washing the car in your driveway will do."



Let's be serious here - if rain actually washed away the dirt and contaminates from your car's paint we wouldn't be washing them would we. Any effect from rain on your car is negligible and I know this from 12 years of washing cars every day.



"And as I stated earlier, there is little to no documentation of concern over even the millions of individual car washes....except the self-serving pressreleases and trade publications articles from the commercial car wash industry themselves. As they would be the beneficiary of such a driveway washing ban, anything they say is automatically suspect."



Does common sense apply? You and I both know that you are washing all kinds of pollutants off the surface of your car every time you wash it. Add to that the soaps/detergents and cleaners we use to dislodge the contaminants and there is no denying that you are washing pollutants into the water supply. Just read the Federal clean water regulations (a law by which everyone is bound by law to obey) and it clearly states that nothing is permitted to enter the storm sewer runoff except rainwater. This has NOTHING to do with trade groups or industry publications.



These laws have been on the books for a long time. They have just never been strictly enforced until now. Communities that are experiencing water quality problems will obviously be the first to act and begin to step up their enforcement. Proactive communities are bound to follow in theor fotsteps before they experience the same issues.
 
These laws have been on the books for a long time. They have just never been strictly enforced until now. Communities that are experiencing water quality problems will obviously be the first to act and begin to step up their enforcement. Proactive communities are bound to follow in theor fotsteps before they experience the same issues.
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One, then I wish them a lot of luck trying to enforce them. And like I said earlier, the whole Metro Detroit area has been operating under a Federal court order regarding water quality for a long time (I think since the 1970's) and I haven't heard word one about this until now.



Two - there are several Autopians who live nearby (to me) in the Ann Arbor, MI area, a community well know for it's "progressive" stand on a large number of issues. I'll bet that they haven't heard word one on this issue either.



Three, speaking for my area of the country only, all the municipalities around here are cutting back on government services, laying off city workers, and not filling open positions, including many of the ordinance enforcement positions. Given the fact that "revenue sharing" from Washington, DC isn't forth coming, and given the fact that this current administration is been less than supportive of the EPA, and enforcing new regulations (with, I'll grant you a very small number of exceptions), I would be willing to bet that this whole issue is a non-issue, with little to no chance of enforcement.



All I have to walk across the street from my house, through a fifty foot wide by one hundred foot open easement, and look at the state of my subdivisions federally mandated storm sewer overflow retention ponds. Not the city's immediate responsibility, my subdivisions wonderfully inept home owners association has neglected them for six years. And what's now got them paying attention to them? The fact that they are plugged up, and the storm sewers may backup into people's basements. The city's ordinance officer's response? "Not the cities problem". They never even inspected them.



Enforcement? Ain't gonna happen. With the budgetary cutbacks going on, not much dough is left to even think about enforcing new regulations.



Four, the regs you refer to are subject to interpretation. Same regs, according to one of the articles that was linked form your link, basement sump pumps aren't supposed to be tied to the storm sewers either, according to their interpretation of the regs. Guess what? I'm in a six year old sub, and there is, with five miles of my house, six or seven other developmetns like mine. Each and everyone ties their basement sump pumps to the storm sewers. Either they are all in non-compliance, or there's more to it than a couple of newspaper articles can tell you.





15 seconds and came up with all kinds of communities looking into the issue: http://www.carwash.com/keyword.asp?...rd=water+runoff

................I would love to know exactly what you know about my background that allows you to discredit my experience. You admittedly do not work in the wastewater management industry but do business with them. The information you have gleaned from "insiders" is unsubstantiated at best and lacks any teeth.
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Five: Yea, you posted one link, that had a few other links. And the source of your main link? An industry trade group publication/web site, who has a vested interest in stopping driveway car washing. My information lacks teeth? And yours is better?



I checked the State of Michigan Department of Environmental Quality's website. Plenty of regs for commercial car washes. One PDF document with suggestions, not regulations for parking lot type charity car washes. A lot of other hits on "car wash", so I tried "runoff" - lots of hits, but only suggestions, that you wash your car on your lawn or a grassy area. No regs. Just a suggestion.



Like I said earlier - a non-issue.
 
"One, then I wish them a lot of luck trying to enforce them. And like I said earlier, the whole Metro Detroit area has been operating under a Federal court order regarding water quality for a long time (I think since the 1970's) and I haven't heard word one about this until now.

Two - there are several Autopians who live nearby (to me) in the Ann Arbor, MI area, a community well know for it's "progressive" stand on a large number of issues. I'll bet that they haven't heard word one on this issue either."



I had never seen or heard of the "Volkswagon Thing" a few years back but it didn't mean it didn't exist.



"Three, speaking for my area of the country only, all the municipalities around here are cutting back on government services, laying off city workers, and not filling open positions, including many of the ordinance enforcement positions. Given the fact that "revenue sharing" from Washington, DC isn't forth coming, and given the fact that this current administration is been less than supportive of the EPA, and enforcing new regulations (with, I'll grant you a very small number of exceptions), I would be willing to bet that this whole issue is a non-issue, with little to no chance of enforcement.



Enforcement? Ain't gonna happen. With the budgetary cutbacks going on, not much dough is left to even think about enforcing new regulations."



I don't disagree with you. This is going to be pretty low on the priority list for most communities but it doesn't mean it isn't going to happen eventually. Any community with significant water quality issues is sure to be looking at this before too long.



"Four, the regs you refer to are subject to interpretation. Same regs, according to one of the articles that was linked form your link, basement sump pumps aren't supposed to be tied to the storm sewers either, according to their interpretation of the regs. Guess what? I'm in a six year old sub, and there is, with five miles of my house, six or seven other developmetns like mine. Each and everyone ties their basement sump pumps to the storm sewers. Either they are all in non-compliance, or there's more to it than a couple of newspaper articles can tell you."



The links I posted were mainly outlining what was happening in the GTA (Toronto) with respect to their efforts on this issue. They are not bound by the same regulations as you will be under the Federal Clean Water legislation in the US. I suggest you check that legislation and then get back to me.



"Five: Yea, you posted one link, that had a few other links. And the source of your main link? An industry trade group publication/web site, who has a vested interest in stopping driveway car washing. My information lacks teeth? And yours is better?"



You may note that if you follow the link that is under the e-news section the articles have nothing to do with the site or any trade publication. The close to 30 articles contained there are gathered from various news sources as they come up.



"I checked the State of Michigan Department of Environmental Quality's website. Plenty of regs for commercial car washes. One PDF document with suggestions, not regulations for parking lot type charity car washes. A lot of other hits on "car wash", so I tried "runoff" - lots of hits, but only suggestions, that you wash your car on your lawn or a grassy area. No regs. Just a suggestion.



Like I said earlier - a non-issue."



I suggest you do some reading at the EPA website. If I am correct do they not supercede all other governing bodies being the highest level of government?
 
I suggest you do some reading at the EPA website. If I am correct do they not supercede all other governing bodies being the highest level of government?
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Technically, yes, but in general, all 50 states environmental laws mirror the EPA regs, and provide state enforcement. Keep in mind, even the EPA's authority isn't absolute if there's a court challenge, and in those cases, what's ruled in one district isn't necessarily binding in another, until the issue is addressed by the Supreme Court.



Part of my industrial sales experience, during which I called on the waste water treatment, was in the sale of fluid sealing products, including non-asbestos gaskets. The EPA, in 1980's banned asbestos from all fluid sealing products, and no one manufacturers any anymore, that I know of. No industry uses it anymore that I'm aware of.



What most people don't know is that the Supreme Court threw out the ban in 1991 or 1992, on the grounds that they didn't conduct enough public hearings on it. To this day, that decision stands. Even though no one uses asbestos anymore, because the insurance industry refuses to cover any company that does attempt to use it. Even the US Navy, the last large scale asbestos customer, has been replacing asbestos gaskets and valve seals in high temperature steam applications (on and off ships) with graphite.



The EPA may well have banned driveway car washing. That, in and of itself, means nothing until it survives a court challenge.
 
I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but i want to make sure that everyone is clear on the difference in using a carwash and washing a car at home.



Whe I go to a carwash, the disrty water is cleaned and reused. Some is discharged to the sanitary sewers and treated at the municipal waste water palnt. I assume some of the waster also goes to landfills.



When I wash my car at home, the water runs through my backyard into a creek then into a river. That water is not treated. If this wastewater ran into a storm sewer, the situation would be the same. Stormwater outfalls are generally not treated. Some cities still have combined sewers that handle sanitary wastewater and storm water. In that case the water from a home car washing would be treated.



So the water from carwashes is treated (at least those in cities) and the water from washing a car at home is probably not treated.



That being said, I seriously doubt that home carwashing will be regulated, at least from the wastewater standpoint. I recall that some locations have people that patrol to enforce lawn-watering and car washing bans during droughts.
 
Skipping back a number of posts...



Addressing the request I made for anybody with a containment system to take samples of the run-off for testing.



Our weather is wash worthy..but..my driveway has a slope as well. If nobody else steps up I'll figure something out using a big blue tarp and some 2 x 4's.



Peter
 
Considering the containment and treatment of wastewater from commercial car washes as an environmental challenge is quite understandable.



These businesses wash thousands of cars in a day or a week and use much harsher and stronger chemicals than a weekend residential driveway washer.



In the case of the commercial enterprise, the impact to the local environment could quickly become severe.



Here in Southern California, water usage is also a tremendous concern. Commercial facilities must be conservative in their usage in a great part because of the expense of using all that water.



So now we have water filtration and recycling for both conservation and financial purposes combined with intense chemical contamination.



This all does not really pertain to the "runoff" from a driveway wash where the only contaminants are what's landed on the surface plus any chemical cleaners introduced into the wash water.



Since my couple of ounces of shampoo are not intended to wash thousands of cars, they can be formulated to be more environmentally friendly. This is a relatively simple "problem" to solve (if it hasn't already).



A good example is "Simple Green". 15 years ago, boat owners in local harbors were prohibited from using anything stronger than Simple Green for washing their vessels. No one complained and the product performs perfectly. Simple Green's headquarters are located at the mouth of Huntington Harbor (Anaheim Bay) so they are very much in tune with environmental issues.



There has been much discussion about "laws" and so far there are no "laws" in California prohibiting driveway washing beyond an occasional ban due to water conservation.



I can't really believe that California would successfully enact a ban on driveway car washing. The public outcry and pushback would prevent it.



When one looks at the myriad of runoff and pollution problems in California it would seem ludicrous that the state would saddle itself with such enforcement while letting so many other sources slip by.



Sorry.... I should have kept it to 100 words or less.
 
"Considering the containment and treatment of wastewater from commercial car washes as an environmental challenge is quite understandable.



These businesses wash thousands of cars in a day or a week and use much harsher and stronger chemicals than a weekend residential driveway washer."



I have seen many, many people washing their cars with everything from dish detergent to all purpose cleaner and seen a myriad of extremely dangerous chemicals used like toilet bowl cleaner to clean rims. These kind of idiotic practices are commonplace with people who don't know any better or just don't care. Do not assume everyone out there cares about using quality products to clean their vehicles. This issue has been discussed at length on this froum many times before.



"There has been much discussion about "laws" and so far there are no "laws" in California prohibiting driveway washing beyond an occasional ban due to water conservation."



You might want to check those facts. Los Angeles county has already stepped up enforcement and cracked down on mobile detailers. Wash a car in the street and not contain the water - $1000 fine - no warnings or exceptions. Charity car washes are being regulated. It would seem obvious that these would be the first to be regulated because they are easier to track. Once they have that under control they will begin to enforce the laws aginst private citizens that are not observing the law.



"I can't really believe that California would successfully enact a ban on driveway car washing. The public outcry and pushback would prevent it."



What? I can't wash my car at home anymore? You have to be kidding right? I can only see it now - "riots in the streets of Los Angeles over carwash ban - news at 11". Just because "the public" won't like it doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. I can only imagine how many necessary laws would have been shot down if "the public" had their way.



"When one looks at the myriad of runoff and pollution problems in California it would seem ludicrous that the state would saddle itself with such enforcement while letting so many other sources slip by."



You are probably correct that the enforcement is going to be lax for the time being but it doesn't mean it isn't coming soon. Realistically, I see something like what was enacted in Toronto with a "snitch line" being set up and violators reported via that system along with sporadic enforcement by city by-law officials. I highly doubt there will be a special force of "carwash cops" that will be going around handing out tickets or anything like that.



"Sorry.... I should have kept it to 100 words or less."



Why are you sorry? You had a viewpoint to express and you did so in an articulate, polite manner.
 
ShineShop said:






You are probably correct that the enforcement is going to be lax for the time being but it doesn't mean it isn't coming soon. Realistically, I see something like what was enacted in Toronto with a "snitch line" being set up and violators reported via that system along with sporadic enforcement by city by-law officials. I highly doubt there will be a special force of "carwash cops" that will be going around handing out tickets or anything like that.
Click to expand...



It's going to be really interesting to see if that happens. There has been so many local budget problems, I wonder if enforcement, if this ever really passes muster by the courts (and I am not convinced that it will), will ever happen.



As I stated one post before, Michigan has nothing on the books regarding this, and even a Federal ban like this needs state action to enforce it on the local level. Otherwise, there's no provision for a federal regulation like this (if it ever comes to pass) to be enforced by each individual municipality.



I'm not holding my breath on that ever happening in my state.
 
ShineShop said:


I have seen many, many people washing their cars with everything from dish detergent to all purpose cleaner and seen a myriad of extremely dangerous chemicals used like toilet bowl cleaner to clean rims. These kind of idiotic practices are commonplace with people who don't know any better or just don't care. Do not assume everyone out there cares about using quality products to clean their vehicles.
Click to expand...



What would be different than if they used these chemicals on their barbeque or any other around-the-house use? People do do stupid things but education can work wonders and be much less costly than "enforcement".



ShineShop said:


Los Angeles county has already stepped up enforcement and cracked down on mobile detailers. Wash a car in the street and not contain the water - $1000 fine - no warnings or exceptions.
Click to expand...



Funny that someone in Ontario, Canada knows so much about Los Angeles.



Either way... you mention a so-called "law" concerning commercial mobile detailers. If it exists, this is not a law or regulation aimed at residents.



If you do, indeed, have evidence of any such laws or regulations on California's or Los Angeles' books please post them. Since no one I know has ever heard of such a thing and mobile detailers are quite common around here it would be an interesting revelation to see these regulations.



If they do exist I can state with reasonable confidence that I have never seen any attempt at enforcement.



Thanks, Bill L.
 
"Funny that someone in Ontario, Canada knows so much about Los Angeles."



My location is relevant how.....? I have been involved in the detailing industry for over 11 years and frequently network with with industry leaders that inform me of what is going on in different areas of the country and the world for that matter.



"Either way... you mention a so-called "law" concerning commercial mobile detailers. If it exists, this is not a law or regulation aimed at residents."



The law is aimed at everyone - the first to get nailed are going to be those who are breaking the law in the course of conducting business. They are also the easiest to find and track. However, the law applies to everyone and eventually will get enforced.



"If you do, indeed, have evidence of any such laws or regulations on California's or Los Angeles' books please post them. Since no one I know has ever heard of such a thing and mobile detailers are quite common around here it would be an interesting revelation to see these regulations.



If they do exist I can state with reasonable confidence that I have never seen any attempt at enforcement."



http://www.lacity.org/SAN/wpd/WPD/residents/ordinance.htm
 
2. Conditionally Exempt Discharges. The following non-stormwater discharges may be allowed to be discharged into the storm drain system, subject to all appropriate BMPs. The Board may review and adopt appropriate BMPs for any conditionally exempt discharges and place said BMPs in the Boardâ€â„¢s âہ“Rules and Regulations Governing the Discharge of Conditionally Exempt Non-Stormwater Dischargesâ€Â�. The Board may from time to time, as it deems appropriate, change, modify, revise or alter existing BMPs. It shall be the responsibility of any discharger to comply with all Board adopted BMPs in existence at the time of discharge of any non-stormwater discharge set forth on this Conditionally Exempt Discharge list. If the Board has not adopted BMPs for any of the below listed discharges, the discharger may allow such a discharge provided it is in compliance with all other requirements of the âہ“Stormwater and Urban Runoff Pollution Control Ordinanceâ€Â�. Discharge of any of the below listed âہ“Conditionally Exempt Dischargesâ€Â� at a time prior to the Boardâ€â„¢s adoption of BMPs for that particular discharge shall not relieve the discharger from compliance with the BMPs for the discharge once they are adopted by the Board. The âہ“Conditionally Exempt Dischargesâ€Â� are as follows:



(a) Discharges from lawn and landscape irrigation;

(b) Water line flushing;

(c) Discharges from potable water sources;

(d) Foundation drains;

(e) Footing drains;

(f) Air conditioning condensate;

(g) Irrigation water;

(h) Water from crawl space pumps;

(i) Dechlorinated swimming pool discharges;

(j) Discharges from individual residential car washing;

(k) Discharges from non-profit car washing;

(l) Street washing (including sidewalk washing); and

(m) Other categories approved by the Executive Officer of the California Regional Water Quality Control Board, Los Angeles Region or an authorized representative
 
1993....



http://www.carwashguys.com/history/museum165.shtml



Council waters down car wash ordinance

by Margaret Daly

Staff Writer



THOUSAND OAKS - The City Council decimated a resolution three years in the making Tuesday, allowing the mobile car washing industry virtual free rein in Thousand Oaks.



During the 2½ -hour public hearing, mobile car washers testified that the proposed law was discriminatory because it targeted their business, and fixed car wash operators argued that the mobile units posed an environmental threat.



As testimony ended, Councilman Frank Schillo proposed that the council do very little to regulate the industry.



"For the most part, I don't think a lot of this can be enforced anyway," he said. "I really don't think we should be getting involved with a competitive atmosphere."



He proposed deleting several portions of the ordinance, including restrictions on where and how many cars mobile washers could clean, and he suggested exempting high-quality wax and polish detailers from the ordinance.



The council voted 3 to 1 to accept Schillo's changes; Councilwoman Jaime Zukowski dissented, and Councilman Alex Fiore was absent.



The Thousand Oaks Planning Commission had recommended a highly restrictive ordinance. As passed by the council Tuesday, the law restricts mobile operators from retail plazas except where there is parking in the back and requires that they work at least 75 feet from the nearest storm drain. They must obtain an administrative action permit for $150 and a solicitation license to go door-to-door.



But it allows them more latitude in other areas.



Mobile operators can wash as many cars as they can in a day - Lance Winslow, owner of The Car Wash Guys, said each of his eight crews can wash up to 60 cars a day - and they don't have to get permission from property owners.



Owners who don't want mobile businesses on their property must post a sign stating that; otherwise, consent will be implied.



While many of the 45 mobile car washers and detailers felt that the original ordinance unfairly targeted them, Zukowski said the amended law was unfair to fixed businesses that have complied with various regulations over the years.



"I have concerns about taking apart an ordinance that really did express some concerns," she said.



The quality of the wash water entering storm drains has been an off-and-on concern, but Winslow and several detailers said they use only about a gallon of clean water and little drops on the ground.



"It's hard to believe no additives are used," Zukowski commented.



Ed Drogmund, a fixed car wash owner who favors strong regulations, said the mobile car washers produce industrial waste and should not be allowed to let that waste drain into city catch basins.



But Schillo and Councilwoman Judy Lazar pointed out that the Los Angeles Regional Water Quality control Board had do objections.



City officials had been working on an ordinance regulating the fast-growing mobile industry for more than three years. Their work included joint committees through the Conejo Valley Chamber of Commerce.



Reprinted from News Chronicle, November 10, 1993
 
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