Car Wash Industry aims to stop driveway washing

[Peter Crowl]

The coin-op self serve car washes in my area do not allow bucket washing. You cannot use your mit..you cannot use your shampoo..etcetera.



You can pull out after doing a wash their way and dry off using your own MF's...in the sun.



You can do a bucket wash if you go furtively in the wee hours and don't get caught..but I don't consider that much of a solution.



What would be better is the development of an affordable containment device for those in regulated areas. $1500 is just too much for a casual user.





Peter

 

[Anthony O.]

Once again, to solve the problem place treatment units at the drains.



To save water why not put something into play in the midwest....something that can channel the water into storage units and then shipped or piped to areas that need water?? Don't many of the midwest states flood every year due to heavy Spring rains?



Again, stopping driveway car washes only places a band-aid on a huge wound. Everyone needs to do their part but banning driveway carwashing does nothing for all the gunk and grime rushing to the storm drains when it rains.

 

[94BlkStang]

http://www.riversides.org/riversafe/media.html



There you go. No less than five articles written by different authors. Although I am sure you will believe they are just part of a larger "conspiracy" to keep you from your god given right to wash your car at home. This is getting old........

What happens to the contaminants that run off my car in the rain? Are they going to abolish raining in my city? I'd love that. I wouldn't have to wash my car near as often then. All of those articles you pasted links to didn't give any concrete numbers or studies on various hazardous ingredients that are in popular car wash soap. If that is seriously a problem, there are definitely ingredients that can be used that are environmentally friendly. To be honest, I bet there are more contaminants being sent down the sewer system related to vehicles that are leaking oil and then having rain water carry those contaminants away. I would like to see studies done that show how much water is actually used when a car is properly washed and have the water contained and anaylyzed to see what the contaminant levels are that rinse off the vehicle. When actual bonafide numbers are presented, then I can decide what I feel is best for the environament.

 

[Lenny]

http://www.riversides.org/riversafe/media.html



There you go. No less than five articles written by different authors. Although I am sure you will believe they are just part of a larger "conspiracy" to keep you from your god given right to wash your car at home. This is getting old........

What's getting old is the sanctimony of your replies. Virtually every municipal waste water treatment plant has, at one time or another, dumped untreated or partially treated sewage, whose contents would make any car wash runoff pale by comparison (as an industrial sales rep, I called on no fewer than a dozen municipal and two dozen industrial waste water facilities).



Furthermore, the runoff from oil leaks, landscaping chemicals, including herbicides and pesticides, and heavy metals just from the rain runoff coming off commercial and industrial buildings makes this whole do-it-yourself car wash runoff "controversy" sound like a scam to bolster the sales at commerical car washes.

 

[jch217]

What about all the water golf courses use, not to mention all the chemicals that pollute the ground water. I guess he must play golf.:nono

 

[safetyman2010]

What's getting old is the sanctimony of your replies. Virtually every municipal waste water treatment plant has, at one time or another, dumped untreated or partially treated sewage, whose contents would make any car wash runoff pale by comparison (as an industrial sales rep, I called on no fewer than a dozen municipal and two dozen industrial waste water facilities).



Furthermore, the runoff from oil leaks, landscaping chemicals, including herbicides and pesticides, and heavy metals just from the rain runoff coming off commercial and industrial buildings makes this whole do-it-yourself car wash runoff "controversy" sound like a scam to bolster the sales at commerical car washes.

The funny thing about every response to the argument about home or mobile car washing is that no one is really denying that they are polluting by doing it. Trying to deflect responsibility for your actions by saying "well this causes more pollution than what I am doing" is a cop out. I don't disagree that there are probably scores of different sources of pollution out there that are causing far more harm to the water supply than your individual car wash does. However, add up how many home or mobile car washes are done on any given day and it adds up to be a significant pollution source. If it wasn't there would be no legislation coming. This is not a commercial car wash initiative to get you to wash your car at the local car wash. It is however, carwash owners and environmental groups fighting for even handed enforcement of all polluters - something I personally do not have a problem with. I also agree with you that the powers that be better get their act together and crack down on the big boys that are doing the serious polluting if they are going to start enforcing this kind of thing as well.

 

[Peter Crowl]

May I point out that I didn't see - if it was there I'd like to have it pointed out to me - in the articles ShineShop cited - any actual data on the run-off from a home wash. They cite the elements that make up the products that can be used....and cite that these elements are harmful. But I don't see data showing the amount of these elements in the run-off.



Let's agree that some of the products used can be harmful...some more than others and with that perhaps what's needed is cautionary information on the labeling that tells consumers which products are more dangerous than others. This will encourage manufacturers to produce less harmful agents as people become more aware.



But...back to my point... what are the actual amounts run-off from a home wash? Are these agents running-off in sufficient quantity to make a home wash a rational target for a ban?



A test such as I'd like to see would also reveal the difference in run-off between a responsible wash and an irresponsible wash... back to education.



Let's also consider that different areas have different concerns. In one of the articles it was pointed out that it has been practice in Toronto for downspouts to connected to sanitary sewer lines. This has never been allowed anywhere I've lived. I also see them encouraging rainbarrels. In Colorado a rainbarrel is not allowed as any unauthoried impoundment of water is illegal.









Peter

 

[imported_wblynch]

THE POLLUTION IS NOT COMING FROM DRIVEWAY WASHING !



Does anyone other than a very few of us realize that the SOURCE of the pollution is not driveway car washers?



It is from the particulates that land on our cars as we drive them and from the exhaust, tire rubber and leaking fluids from these same cars.



The worst offenders in my mind are diesel exhaust emissions from commercial vehicles, jet planes, ships in port and trains. All this junk is spewed into the atmosphere and lands on the Earth and anything sitting around (like houses, cars, horses and even people).



Using some of the illogic I have been reading, they should outlaw people taking baths ! ---or at least swimming in rivers, lakes and the ocean.



What about all that junk landing directly onto the ocean itself?



All those ships in and out of Long Beach every day are dropping more junk than all the car washes in Southern California.



Oil refineries, as much progress they've made, are extreme polluters. On cloudy and rainy days they are allowed to dump tons more dirt into the air because the rain will wash it out of the sky. Is that not adding to runoff?



If anything needs to be addressed, it is the SOURCE of any pollutants.



But no, they want to go after the weak and defenseless. The little guy washing his car.

 

[safetyman2010]

THE POLLUTION IS NOT COMING FROM DRIVEWAY WASHING !



Does anyone other than a very few of us realize that the SOURCE of the pollution is not driveway car washers?



It is from the particulates that land on our cars as we drive them and from the exhaust, tire rubber and leaking fluids from these same cars.



The worst offenders in my mind are diesel exhaust emissions from commercial vehicles, jet planes, ships in port and trains. All this junk is spewed into the atmosphere and lands on the Earth and anything sitting around (like houses, cars, horses and even people).



Using some of the illogic I have been reading, they should outlaw people taking baths ! ---or at least swimming in rivers, lakes and the ocean.



What about all that junk landing directly onto the ocean itself?



All those ships in and out of Long Beach every day are dropping more junk than all the car washes in Southern California.



Oil refineries, as much progress they've made, are extreme polluters. On cloudy and rainy days they are allowed to dump tons more dirt into the air because the rain will wash it out of the sky. Is that not adding to runoff?



If anything needs to be addressed, it is the SOURCE of any pollutants.



But no, they want to go after the weak and defenseless. The little guy washing his car.

I do not believe that anyone here has ever said the sole cause of pollution is washing your car at home or in the street. It is however one of the causes and that is undeniable. You can stick your head in the sand and avoid the issue by blaming it on someone else but it doesn't change that fact. Let's also assume that a typical vehicle has NO pollutants on it's surface when being washed aside from common dust or soil. What about the soaps and cleaners that are being dumped directly into the storm sewers after rinsing the vehicle off? Do you have any idea of the ecological impact of detergents and soaps on fish and wildlife? Or is it that you just don't give a damn?

 

[imported_wblynch]

What about the soaps and cleaners that are being dumped directly into the storm sewers after rinsing the vehicle off?



Do you have any idea of the ecological impact of detergents and soaps on fish and wildlife? Or is it that you just don't give a damn?

Of course I give a damn. If there's a problem with the cleaners we're using that can be addressed at the source.



I have no doubt that commercial car cleaning products are tightly regulated. I'm sure there are very explicit guidelines about the content of those products.



You can't seriously believe that a capful or two of Autowash Shampoo is responsible for polluting the ocean? If it is, then let's reformulate that shampoo.



30 or 40 years ago I remember that Laundry Detergent had to be reformulated and Laundry Soap was completely banned. This had a tremendously positive effect on the environment.



But they didn't ban washing machines !

 

[Peter Crowl]

30 or 40 years ago I remember that Laundry Detergent had to be reformulated and Laundry Soap was completely banned. This had a tremendously positive effect on the environment.



But they didn't ban washing machines !

Well Put!!

 

[Lenny]

I do not believe that anyone here has ever said the sole cause of pollution is washing your car at home or in the street. It is however one of the causes and that is undeniable. You can stick your head in the sand and avoid the issue by blaming it on someone else but it doesn't change that fact. Let's also assume that a typical vehicle has NO pollutants on it's surface when being washed aside from common dust or soil. What about the soaps and cleaners that are being dumped directly into the storm sewers after rinsing the vehicle off? Do you have any idea of the ecological impact of detergents and soaps on fish and wildlife? Or is it that you just don't give a damn?

I've called on the waste water treatment plants from Port Huron down to Toledo, and out to Sandusky, OH, both the facilities in close proximity to the Great Lakes, and the ones further inland, all the way in Michigan to Ann Arbor and Lansing, and in Ohio from the Lake Erie shoreline inland to Defiance, Bowling Green, Tiffin, and Norwalk. ShineShop, I damn well know where London, Ontario is, as I have family in Windsor and Toronto, so I'm fairly sure you have a better than average idea of where I'm referring to.



I spent the better part of ten years selling pump, seals, and chemicals to the waste water treatment plants, both municipal and industrial, so I'm more than a little familiar with the situation. Furthermore, living in the Metro Detroit area, and getting our city water from the City of Detroit, we've been under a federal court order, regarding waste water treatment, for the better part of three decades. That's thirty damn years for those too lazy to do the math.



During my career I've had long, LONG discussions with the directors of the facilities I've called on. wblynch is 100% correct in saying that there is no pollution (worth speaking of) coming from driveway washing. Every damn waste water plant I spoke was extremely concerned with do-it-yourselfers: Oil changes (one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of drinking water), leaky engine and transmission gaskets, lawn chemicals, salt and ice melt on driveways and sidewalks. Not one <edited> d*amn time did I ever hear anyone mention washing your car in your driveway as a cause of concern.



I heard them complain, bitterly, plenty of times about commercial car washes, and about recycling tank overflows into the storm sewers, especially because of the harsher pH of some commercial car wash detergents, but not one damn time in ten years did I ever hear them call out DIY car washing in your driveway as a pollution problem. If these guys aren't calling it a problem, then just who is?



No one is sticking their heads in the sands, pal. It that no one wants to go through yet another environmentalist-politician scam that takes aim at the Little Guy, because the big guys have too many resources to fight change with. A prime example is the reason why automobile tail pipe emissions are singled out for regulation, like individual tail pipe testing, and smoke stack emissions get a more cursory once-over and ignored, especially in our mutual area of the Great Lakes. When it became evident that mandatory tail-pipe testing may come back to haunt drivers trying to renew the plates for their cars, a prominent Michigan politician came out and said that was going to happen because it was easier than going up against big company lawyers and lobbyists. When it was further pointed out that tail pipe emission testing was unnecessary with modern engine management electronics constantly doing the testing (re: your cars Check Engine Light), he acknowledged that tail pipe testing was a waste of time and money, but repeated that it was easier to please the EPA by making the little guy do something that amounted to nothing, rather than risk the threat of companies closing shop by going after the real polluters, namely the smoke stack owners.



Watch your mouth when you accuse people of sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us are not only aren't sticking our heads in the sand, our eyes are wide open enough to see a political scam when it rears it's ugly head. This is definitely one of those times.

 

[ntwrkguy1]

How about if the water from your driveway never reaches the street? I wash my car in the driveway, but because it slopes ever so slightly towards the house, the water NEVER makes it into the street. Yes, I'm using an attachment on the end of the house, so I use a minimal amount of water to wash the car.



At the end of the wash, the water remains on the driveway, but two hours later, the driveway is basically dry.



Of course, nobody wants to pollute the environment, but trust me, there are bigger offenders out there than 'driveway washers'.

 

[TDMAN]

Thank you and well put. Shine shop, you need to get a clue. Nobody's forcing you to wash your car in your driveway. If it personally bothers you, stop doing it. But get your facts right. You don't have any backing or proof for what you are talking about. Plus, there is nothing more annoying than a jack*ss like you who will talk about the "problem" but never offer a solution. I think you need to get your head out of the sand.

 

[Bobby G]

Let's keep it civil... this can remain a good conversation if we stay in check.

 

[Peter Crowl]

Hey guys...let's keep it constructive.



I disagree with ShineShop and applaud Len_A for a very reasoned reply..save for the @$%#*# :~)... but ShineSHop reopened this discussion and good things can come of it.



Let's throttle back the discourse and .. as TDMAN said ... get back to the issue of a solution.



Peter

 

[Peter Crowl]

David..since you're monitoring this thread..what's your take?



Peter

 

[Lenny]

Hey guys...let's keep it constructive.



I disagree with ShineShop and applaud Len_A for a very reasoned reply..save for the @$%#*# :~)... but ShineSHop reopened this discussion and good things can come of it.



Let's throttle back the discourse and .. as TDMAN said ... get back to the issue of a solution.



Peter

Point taken, and edited!! And thanks, too.



Sorry for the ferocity of the response, but somethings get my goat, and the the way a few in the environmental crowd have blown out of proportion something as simple as washing your own car.........



Well, let's just say it makes me pretty mad.



Back to the discussion at hand, something to consider:



When the average person washes his or her own car, you're using about two ounces to maybe four ounces of soap, most of which has a neutral pH. I wasn't kidding when I said that quite a few waste water treatment plant managers gripped about commercial car washes. I have no first hand knowledge of the pH of commercial car wash detergent, but almost all of know it CAN (not always IS) strong enough to strip some of the weaker waxes off a cars finish, and at the very least, shorten the life of many waxes.



Two to maybe four ounces of pH neutral soap.



Look at fertilizing your lawn. I have NO CLUE what the average lot size is, so I'm going to talk about mine - my lot is about 80 wide by 120 feet deep. Because of my dog's allergies, I stopped using chemical fertilizers like Scott's, and switched to organics, like Ringer's Lawn Restore, which I use three times a year, alternated monthly with Aggrand liquid organic fertilizer.



I didn't do this to be a tree-hugger - those people give me a rash. Little did I know that I was helping the environment, and that was after years of calling on the waste water treatment plants (god, am I a rocket scientist...NOT!). I found out that even though the numbers on the Ringers was lower -Ringers is a 10-2-6 fertilizer, it was a slow release, so it didn't wash down the sewer. Scott's is a 30-3-4 - 30% nitrogen. And it dissolves in water quickly, and according to my local city government, contaminates not only the the ground water, but the Detroit River.



How? You figure that a 25 pound bag is seven and a half pounds nitrogen, about half of which will dissolve so quickly that a good rain storm or over watering will send it down the sewer. 3.75 pounds of nitrogen to make algae grow like nuts and kill off the fish. On my lot, from April to October, I'll easily use a 25 pound bag of Scot's if I still used that type. So just my house could, in theory, send 3.75 pounds of nitrogen down the sewer every year. Multiply that in my subdivision by 125 houses, and you got a problem.



Compare that to two to four ounces of car wash soap. Even if it were a "major" pollutant, out of two to four ounces of car wash soap, one question to ask is this:



How much of it is WATER? That's when it's in the package. Because gentlemen, it ain't all soap. Even if I washed my car every week, from April to October, that's just me washing my car. You want to know how many of us actually wash their own cars, in their own driveways in this sub? My lazy butt neighbors (yea, I tell'em that to their face when they raze me about detailing my cars)? Maybe twenty to twenty-five of us, plus three RV's that get washed maybe twice a year.



How the hell can that compare to nearly four pounds of nitrogen hitting the sewers every year, multiplied by 125 house. 3.75 time 125 equals about 469 pounds of excess nitrogen polluting the storm sewers.



You think I'm exaggerating about the fertilizer? This is one of at least three websites in Metro Detroit telling people to use organic fertilizers Link, and you think anyone listens? And that's on top of a monthly mailing my city and every city near me does from May to September. Lowe's carries Milorganite, and Scott's out sells it, according to closest store to me, by about 20 to 1, Home Depot caries Ringers, and that manager said Scott's and the other chemical fertilizers out sell Ringers by over 40 to 1.



And some genius wants us to stop washing cars in our own driveways and use commercial car washes instead, after water treatment professionals have told me that home do-it-yourself-car-washing isn't a huge problem.



Smells like a commercial industry scam to me.

 

[Anthony O.]

Shineshop, I believe si speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony

 

[Lenny]

Shineshop, I believe is speaking mainly from a professional aspect. He reclaims his water, which is costly, and he gets ticked I am sure when he sees other detailers not abiding by the law and undercutting his prices, hence taking work from him.



I may have this wrong if so please correct me.



Given that though I understand where he is coming from.



Anthony

I can understand that, and most commercial drive-thru car washes (if not all) reclaim their water. Nevertheless, for an industry to attempt to go after the individual car owner, washing his or her own car, in their own driveway, is ridiculous. It isn't cost effective for most of us, wouldn't do the same job that, as Autopians, we would do, and I still maintain, would not benefit the environment one iota.



Besides, in a previous reply, several pages back, he said he wasn't a carwash owner:

Why would your motivation to dispute the ban? Because it's wrong or because it doesn't suit your needs and wants to do your car at home? Sounds kind of self serving to me. Also, the broad issue is the depositing of detergents, surfactants, oils, rust, engine grime, wax, degreasers and a variety of metals directly into the water supply untreated. Is that not a big deal to you? I am neither a car wash owner or an environmental activist but I do want to do what's right. Like the old saying goes: you are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Well, I'm not a carwash owner, nor a professional detailer. I am absolutely not an environmental activist either. Do I want to do "whats right" for the environment?



Well, to be perfectly honest....no, not in this case. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I spent too much time, in industrial sales, pending a good percentage of my time selling products in the fluid sealing side of the business, with pump and valve repair parts, working with plant engineers, safe people, union representatives, and I am plenty jaded by the whole process. I've seen companies skimp on basic maintenance and pay lip service to complying with environment regulations.



Right now, my company is in the process of obtaining our ISO 14000 certification. For those that aren't familar with it, ISO14000 and it's derivatives have to do with environmental regulation complaince. Part of the push of getting manuafcturers to comply with existing environmental laws is to get companies to do business with certified companies only, and Ford is pushing this one big time.



No new laws, just independant certification that manufacturing and industrial business are complying with laws that they were already supposed to be complying with.



So no, I don't want to do "what's right" for the environment, and yes, I'm being self serving. If I can do something like I've done already by switching to organic lawn fertilizers, to protect the environment, great. If not, it's my house, my car, my business, and I'll gladly ask the EPA to butt out. So sue me.



I've said it already, and so have others - this is an industry scam to make them money at the little guys expense.