Car Wash Industry aims to stop driveway washing

Arnold isn't going to ban anything. A city council person with a bug up their butt, placed there by enviros or car wash lobbyists will initiate a process.



I doubt there will be an effort to pass a sweeping State Law in California or elsewhere. It will be local ordinances..enforced by local code enforcement people.



State level politicians will be behind the effort because it looks good..but the bans will be local.



We're the ones who will have to stand up before a local hearing and present a coherent rebuttal...and we'll need credible, well presented materials to back us up.



That's what this rant is all about... getting those who can provide those materials to see that they're necessary and starting the process of preparing them... so we can defend our position locally.



Remember what the quote said....the harmful effects of driveway washing and the importance of community collaboration.
 
The average 10-15 minute SHOWER people take every morning probably consumes more water than a proper driveway car washing.
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Not to mention the fact that few people (even Autopians) wash their cars more than once a week. I would go as far as to say that most non-Autopians probably wash their car about twice a month, and most of them probably do it by way of a drive-thru carwash.



Why do you think I get pestered by my neighbors every time I wash my car? ("How about doing mine?"...."Your going to wash the paint off") Because I am the only one on my street that actually handwashes their car! Thats why!



When I wash my car I run the hose for a max of about six minutes. 3 minutes to rinse the car initially and 3 minutes to rinse off the soap. Wow...that sure is a lot of water. I probably use ten times that (or more) taking showers and washing my clothes every week.



As far as the environmental impact of the soap. I bet the chemicals that runoff from the asphalt in the street do a hell of a lot more damage than the non-toxic, biodegradable soap I use to wash my car. Not to mention all the gasoline and oil that leak out of poorly maintained cars. I could go on and on.



Like others have already said, this is another case of people blaming a problem on something that has very little impact simply because it is an easy target. Unfortunately, this time we are the target.
 
Peter Crowl,



This is a very interesting thread and a subject obviously near and dear to all of our hearts here at autopia.org. I've read the whole thread and noticed that even though you've asked more than once, noone has really answered your question which is, if I understand it correctly, "How are we as a community of auto detailers and general car enthusiasts going to present a relevent and coherent opposition to the possible elimination of our practices?"



1). First off it might be useful to get involved w/ a grass roots organization effort such as www.sema.org (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association ). This is an organization that historically has taken up the cause of the auto enthusiast. In particular the SEMA Action Network, www.semasan.com, is the branch of SEMA designed specifically to take up these kinds of issues.



2). It's good to point out, as crobinso did ( and many others here ), that true auto detailers use the most efficient and conservative means necesssary to wash a car unlike the auto washing industry w/ it's coin-ops and drive throughs which require continual water usage from beginning to end.



3). Most autopians would probably be quite ameniable to using environmentally friendly and bio-degradable soap products. As long as we get the results we're looking for, who really cares what soap is used. Of course this means the infamous "Dawn wash" may finally die away.



4). Most people who want a clean car can probably learn a thing or two from autopians who do it right to begin w/ and who probably keep their cars in tip-top running condition because that's just the kind of folk we are.



Perhaps we could get Gov Schwarzenager to star in an Autopia PSA video on the proper way to bucket was one of his Hummer's . . . .



Hope this helps as a starting point.
 
Well, we pay a $1.00 per month for "rain water runoff" on our water bill. That covers the water that runs off our roofs after a rain, so I hope it covers what water we use washing our cars.
 
Quote: As far as the environmental impact of the soap, I bet the chemicals that runoff from the asphalt in the street do a hell of a lot more damage than the non-toxic, biodegradable soap I use to wash my car. Not to mention all the gasoline and oil that leak out of poorly maintained cars. I could go on and on. EOQ REX-RACER





In simple terms, looking at the petroleum cleaning (distillation) process, the higher up the column the more environmentally friendly the product, asphalt is taken from the base, gasoline and engine oils midway and the components in car wash concentrates (and most other car care products) are taken from the top and then further processed to â€Ëœcleanâ€â„¢ them.



Using environmentally friendly products would be a good way for us to take responsibility for our actions (incidentally most car washes use a commercial detergent, of which a % is filtered and then re-circulated, but what happens to the balance you cannot re-circulate 100%?) I think initially monitoring commercial use of questionable chemicals just because they are â€Ëœfastâ€â„¢ (i.e. using hydrofluoric acid to clean wheels or engines or some of the so-called APCâ€â„¢s that are very alkaline, etc, etc)



Unfortunately legislation will be instigated against Joe Average because heâ€â„¢s an easier target than big corporations that pay more taxes and have a lot more political pull.
 
RCBuddha said:
I agree...i'd say that most car wash owners pollute a heck of a lot more than the average household!
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Well, I don't know about the rest of the country, but here in NJ, and I'm sure in CA, car washes are not allowed to discharge. They are required to recirculate and treat the water, so I would guess that they DON'T "pollute a heck of a lot more".
 
SilverLexus said:
Horrors! People may start washing their own car and discover they can do it without applying swirl marks like our beloved commercial washes do.
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Yup, wouldn't that be luverly?





Originally posted by SilverLexus Now let's see...I'm off to Sanfransissy to tax plastic bags... [/B]
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:rofl I never heard this pronunciation of San Fran before. STOLEN!



Charles
 
TOGWT said:


Unfortunately legislation will be instigated against Joe Average because heâ€â„¢s an easier target than big corporations that pay more taxes and have a lot more political pull.
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I think in this instance, you are mistaken. At least in highly regulated areas of the country, like NJ and CA, the corporations were targeted long ago...only now is it filtering down to "Joe Average". Almost all of the plating operations were regulated out of CA, later, the same thing happened here in NJ. If you were a plater, you either invested huge amounts in zero discharge/water treatment or you closed. Period. The NJDEP, acting as an agent of the EPA, inspects and fines Hazardous Waste Generators. Who is a generator? Anyone who buys oils, solvents, machine tool coolants, etc. That's gas stations, tire shops, manufacturers, who are required to register with the EPA as a generator. Any waste removed is manifested and reported to EPA. Right-to-know laws require all hazardous materials stored over threshold amounts be reported annualy. Theoretically, a comparison could be made between the amount purchased, amount stored, and the amount disposed of to determine if waste is being improperly disposed of. Water usage is spot checked by NJDEP by asking for water bills, local sewer authorites use electronic monitoring devices in sanitary sewer lines to check on suspected or possible offenders. Did I mention that air compressor condensate is a hazardous waste due to the very slight oil content? That can't be sewered. If you treat it, you are a sewage treatment facility and must be licensed by NJDEP. Theoretically it must be disposed of as oily wastewater (which is classed by EPA as non-hazardous waste, but a regulated waste, nonetheless). Oh, did I mention that there is a limit to the amount of non-hazardous waste you can store? And if you have hazardous waste (solvent, etc.), you CANNOT store a full container for more than 3 days, because then you are not just a generator, you are a waste storage facility, and need to have emergency plans, drill with the local police/fire/rescue on a yearly basis, etc.



Sorry for the rant, but "Joe Average" has it easy...and I work at a little company, which has probably less scrutiny than a big, high profile company. Besides a litany of other reasons, this is why (almost) nothing is manufactured in the US anymore, because many other countries have much less strict environmental laws.
 
REX-RACER said:
Peter Crowl,



This is a very interesting thread and a subject obviously near and dear to all of our hearts here at autopia.org. I've read the whole thread and noticed that even though you've asked more than once, noone has really answered your question which is, if I understand it correctly, "How are we as a community of auto detailers and general car enthusiasts going to present a relevent and coherent opposition to the possible elimination of our practices?"



1). First off it might be useful to get involved w/ a grass roots organization effort such as www.sema.org (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association ). This is an organization that historically has taken up the cause of the auto enthusiast. In particular the SEMA Action Network, www.semasan.com, is the branch of SEMA designed specifically to take up these kinds of issues.



2). It's good to point out, as crobinso did ( and many others here ), that true auto detailers use the most efficient and conservative means necesssary to wash a car unlike the auto washing industry w/ it's coin-ops and drive throughs which require continual water usage from beginning to end.



3). Most autopians would probably be quite ameniable to using environmentally friendly and bio-degradable soap products. As long as we get the results we're looking for, who really cares what soap is used. Of course this means the infamous "Dawn wash" may finally die away.



4). Most people who want a clean car can probably learn a thing or two from autopians who do it right to begin w/ and who probably keep their cars in tip-top running condition because that's just the kind of folk we are.



Perhaps we could get Gov Schwarzenager to star in an Autopia PSA video on the proper way to bucket was one of his Hummer's . . . .



Hope this helps as a starting point.
Click to expand...



Rex-Racer...Thank You!!



SEMA...

Good thought. I'll send them an email and ask what their take is on this.



Commercial Car Washes...

Having actual data/stats/information regarding their water useage and discharge is needed. There's been a lot of.."they're worse" in this thread, but without facts that's a useless argument.



Education...

A prepared brochure that cities can make available would aid in a defense of hand washing. This allows them to decide in favor of hand washing while at the same time "taking steps" to curb the "Harmful Effects" that the Car Wash Industry is using to push bans.

These could be distributed at DMV offices, through car dealers, at auto parts shops, gas stations..the ones that don't have washes that is...and so forth.

This is an item we need to have available ASAP. Getting something like this out before an attempt to ban hand washing is mounted is the way to go.

Being able to go to your city council and say "Hi..we're concerned about this issue...we want to help people learn to be responsible when they wash their cars...help us get the word out by distributing these." would be a very good thing.

Anything we can do to mount a defense before the Barbarians are at the gate is needed. This is another item the car care product manufacturers would have to get involved with.





Image...also a good point. Dad and the Kids washing the car on Sunday in an environmentally responsible fashion..wholesome family activity...it's part of the entire package.



Ok...now we're getting somewhere. I've posted this issue on the Meguiars board as well..and got good input there. I'm kind of waiting to see if Meguiars takes up the issue. We need to prod all the suppliers about this though..and they need to hear it from more than just one person.



Peter
 
Man, you guys sure do get upset at stuff that doesnâ€â„¢t even exist (itâ€â„¢s called a âہ“straw Manâ€Â� but you guys probably know that)



No one is is seriously trying to ban cell phones. Requiring hands-free devices is probably as far as that will go. Also, we'll probably see technology that doesnâ€â„¢t allow the phone to ring as you approach an intersection. Studies have shown that a lot of cellphone related accidents occur just after the phone rings and just as the driver entered a difficult intersection. (I donâ€â„¢t have a link to his, but this is what a Volvo design type told me in Sweden)



As to âہ“taking on the little guy,â€Â� you guys couldnâ€â„¢t be more wrong. (except Joe, who is generally correct) Industry bears the burden first, long before residential users do. (we have to live the agriculture industry out of this, as they do get a free pass) Water conservation measures and water treatment measures are implemented by industrial users way before any restrictions are imposed on residential users. Just an illustration, are any of our homes restricted in how much copper can go down our drains? NO,l but every factory in California (and probably where you guys live) has waste discharge requirements on copper concentrations. Thus, many factories try to use less copper, or find better ways to handle it so less goes down the drains, or builds water treatment facilities to get the copper out of their discharges. The little guy is usually the last one that gets regulated, thankfully.



Itâ€â„¢s not the soap, nor is it the water us. Iâ€â„¢ts the crap thatâ€â„¢s washed off the cars. The road grime; the metals.



And commercial car washes treat and recycle their water, so no metals are being discharged to the creeks, etc.



Iâ€â„¢m not saying home car washing should be banned, but Iâ€â„¢m sure a few management practices could be implemented that would decrease the negative impacts.



Soap is not the only issue â€â€œ you have to somehow deal with the crap that gets washed off the car. I am not familiar with the best washig methods, but if there is a way to reduce/elminiate run-off, that is the key.



I also think it would be useful to get an order of magnitude comparison between how much pollution is discharged to creeks by hand washing verus other things that arenâ€â„¢t controlled. Of course, itâ€â„¢s only a matter of time until copper rain gutters are banned, which youâ€â„¢ve probalby already guessed.



As a guy who has to pay the bills to get to ZERO copper emissions in a factory, Iâ€â„¢d like to see some of the larger sources of the pollution start paying their freight. My discharge is pretty dang low now.
 
adp said:


Itâ€â„¢s not the soap, nor is it the water us. Iâ€â„¢ts the crap thatâ€â„¢s washed off the cars. The road grime; the metals.
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Well then, we'd better ban rain because I promise more crud gets washed off the roads and into the storm drain than is washed off cars by private owners...and it isn't even close.
 
Scottwax and several others have raised my argument of this issue from long ago. Which is basically that an afternoon South Texas rain shower will wash more gunk down the storm drain than a whole day of car washing by several mobile detailers, even driveway carwashers.



Look at the parking lots of your local mall, school or grocery store next time you are there. Hundreds of oil, gas and radiator leaks all over the place. Where does that stuff go when it rains?



Where does the fertilizers go when it rains? It all goes to the sam eplace where a car washers rinse water goes.....down the storm drains. So in order to combat that part of the problem the gov. would need to place a ban on autos or equipment that leak oil, gas, tran fluid, brake fluid, etc. That would be the first LOGICAL (but highly impractical step). Next, just in case some cars continue to leak, build storm drains with TREATMENT units. Again the logical thing to do but also highly unlikely to be done.



Carwashing, by both pros and weekend warriors, is a small piece of the overall problem and as pros we can all do things to help, instead of adding to, the problem. Rest assured though that this whole deal is backed by the carwashing industry. The local carwash does not want you to wash your car yourself because they are losing revenue. They hope to achieve this by enforcing if not state wide, then locally, bans on driveway and mobile carwashing.



Also, it is not the average Joe they are after, as far as the EPA goes, because an EPA officer told me that they have bigger fish to fry than a few mobile detailers. They are after those who can pay their fines. The FEDS though should offer a "tax break" of sorts to those detailers which comply with the water laws and promote water conservation.



Lastly, biodegradable is ONLY "biodegradable" if it gets into the topsoil. It doesn't break down if it gets into just a water stream. There are other products known as "bio-compatible" which break down on both soil and water.



We now return you to your regular scheduled thread:D

Anthony
 
To answer the question:What can we do about this? WEll there isn't a whole lot we can do because sooner or later it will become enforced.



It's just a matter of time, no grass roots movement will stop it because it will be viewed as "we the detailers" are seeking to do damage to the enviroment, or that we don't care about it.



Here is a chance though for a chemist to make new chemicals to clean better with less water and in turn make lots of money. Isn't America great?!



Oh and what someone may want to do is ask Arnolds private detailer if he is using some method to capture his rinse water, if not (although I am sure he is) sounds like a double standard on Arnie's part, eh?



Anthony
 
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