Car Show Judges......

Quote:

If someone is too lazy to clean there car the day before and have me look at it I will certainly not Honour it as I would an Automobile that someone has spend countless hours prepping for the show. That is why you do a walk around your class to identify the real potential contenders, the rest are just filling.



~One man’s opinion~



I’m in total agreement with ‘krwaxbz’, that’s the way I do ‘preliminary judging’ anyway.





~Hope this is of some help~





Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/



~ justadumbarchitect ~so I question everything ~
 
JB and TOGWT, I can sorta understand what you mean. On the other hand, when you have a car that's been carefully prepped in terms of the real mechanicals, and you lose to a car that's shiny-clean with inauthentic "restoration" and you lose to that car, then I gotta ask .... If the Concours judges are really looking just at cleanliness (and that was the case with my most recent show), then let's quit showing at concours and just take the cars to the Car Washers International Convention. When my authentic, but driven alternator loses to a shiny new but inauthentic alternator, then something is seriously wrong!



But I also acknowledge this may be a function of the Jaguar concours system, which relies on amateur, volunteer judges ... some of whom don't really know the marque in-depth and thus resort to cleanliness as their only criterion.



Thanks for letting me vent. :D
 
JB I hear ya!!! I love driving my car but it is so frustrating when I get back to the garage and everything is dirty again. It's even more frustrating driving to a show, I feel like I'm starting over with the cleanup process. The brake dust on the lug nut is a big pet peeve, how the hell does brake dust collect in this area.....ugh.:confused:



Lynn I know what you mean as well with originality. When you read through MBCA rules (and most other manufacturer concours rules) you note that they will check for authenticity, cleanliness and if all items work. If a judge misses the optima battery sitting in the competitors trunk do you point it out or sulk? Not that this has happened to me yet, but I do wonder how to handle it.
 
MBZ 500E said:
Lynn I know what you mean as well with originality. When you read through MBCA rules (and most other manufacturer concours rules) you note that they will check for authenticity, cleanliness and if all items work. If a judge misses the optima battery sitting in the competitors trunk do you point it out or sulk? Not that this has happened to me yet, but I do wonder how to handle it.
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Though some difficult/thorny questions have been raised in this thread, this one is easy in Jag Club rules. If you point out a defect/originality flaw in a competitor's Jag, you are disqualified ... no ifs, ands, or buts. Quick and easy. No recourse. You just stand there and keep your mouth shut. I do see the sense of this rule but ... when you've spent a long time learning the ins and outs of a marque, and you lose points to a competitor who thinks a shiny Bosch alternator is "nifty" ... and you draw judges who don't know the difference ... well ... I'm gonna shut up now.
 
Well I think there are 2 sides to this argument Lynn.



Losing to a car that is clearly dirty solely because you have one non-original part doesn't sound like fun to me :mad:



That being said, Porsche events don't judge authentisity, so its not an issue. When its all said and done, Porsche's are meant to be driven :D And that's why you see things like racing harnesses, modified exhausts etc.



Requiring authentisity would take a lot of fun out of the cars and in practice mean not many people would attend concours events.
 
We are fairly lucky we have classes for both modified and standard vehicles in our peugeot club. Keeping a car authentic is as big a battle as keeping it clean. It would be easy for me to paint parts that never came painted, replace cast parts with nice chromed or polished ones. I constantly see cars in the concours that are over restored, painted floor pans that they didnt have from the factory etc.
 
Lynn said:
Though some difficult/thorny questions have been raised in this thread, this one is easy in Jag Club rules. If you point out a defect/originality flaw in a competitor's Jag, you are disqualified ... no ifs, ands, or buts. Quick and easy. No recourse. You just stand there and keep your mouth shut. I do see the sense of this rule but ... when you've spent a long time learning the ins and outs of a marque, and you lose points to a competitor who thinks a shiny Bosch alternator is "nifty" ... and you draw judges who don't know the difference ... well ... I'm gonna shut up now.
Click to expand...



Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You're entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you'll be OK.



lol...j/k:D:o



Here's the rest of the rules:



Jaguar Concours Rules They Don't Put in the Manual
 
Sci-Fi said:
Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You're entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you'll be OK.
Click to expand...



I like it! :D



I'm actually helping put together a Concours 101 program for my region of the Porsche Club. I'd love to use that quote....who exactly do I attribute it to?



Funny that you mention paying a professional detailer to clean the engine. We have seen folks do that on their Porsches and it almost always is a disaster! They open the engine compartment for judging and the judge immediately leans in and places their hands on the underside of pipes, hoses, wires etc only to find great gobs of dirt and grease! This event is almost always accompanied by "but I paid$$$$ to get it detailed".



As I like to say:



There maybe someone who can make love to my wife better than I can, but there are some things I rather do myself :D
 
Sci-Fi said:
Rule #17. MASOCHISM CAN BE FUN

You're entering an event where you are paying someone to tell you how lousy your car is. THAT, my friends, is not normal behavior. Revel in your masochism and you'll be OK.



lol...j/k:D:o



Here's the rest of the rules:



Jaguar Concours Rules They Don't Put in the Manual
Click to expand...

Sci-Fi, every Jag owner should print and frame those tips! :bounce Having done two years of Concours and been a National Champ and a national chump, I can attest to the validity of every one of them. I've used lots of the resource materials from the JDRCNA before. Now, having read these too are written by an XJ6C owner ... I'm wondering: Who the heck are you??



JB: I agree with your comment:

Well I think there are 2 sides to this argument Lynn.

Losing to a car that is clearly dirty solely because you have one non-original part doesn't sound like fun to me

That being said, Porsche events don't judge authentisity, so its not an issue.
Click to expand...

But in my case, I'm talking about two Autopianly-detailed/cleaned cars, one of which is actually driven regularly, and one of which is seriously over-restored -- underhood parts polished to a gleaming silver which were originally cad-plated etc, etc. -- exactly the sort of issues that RichPug306xsi pointed out. Supposedly, Jag Concours DO judge "as it came off the line" authenticity, but I'm learning that many judges go more for "glitz" than for the authenticity that is theoretically paramount in Jag judging.



But Sci-Fi is right. Any idiot with the money, time, and ambition to enter two Concours can win a JCNA regional award. I'm one of them this year, thanks (I believe) to being bashed by club politics which favored a "local hero." :(



So ... I think I'm through whining now. :sosad :D
 
Lynn said:
....But in my case, I'm talking about two Autopianly-detailed/cleaned cars, one of which is actually driven regularly, and one of which is seriously over-restored .....
Click to expand...



Yep know what that is about. My main competition this year in Street Class was a car that's driven approx 1000 miles a year. When you consider that one of the events is Las vegas (500 mile return from LA) you start to see how low miles that really is.



In my mind Street should be cars that are regularly driven. Some PCA regions in fact mandate min miles between events for Street cars, but not in Zone 8.



In PCA we also have "Unrestored" Class as well. This class requires you have 75% original paint and leather, and be 10+ years old.. I think this is a good idea, but strangely enough the class is under represented.
 
JB and Lynn,



Do Porsche and Jaguar concours add points for mileage? I know MBCA does add points for miles. I know in Lynn's case that might be more difficult if her biggest competitor is an older restored car, which could have alot of miles prior to restoration.



JB Kudo's to you for beating out a 1000 mile/year car, that is amazing! Bet that guy was pissed!:D



I wish MBCA had a unrestored class, but I would venture to guess that it would be the same situation as PCA.:rolleyes:
 
MBZ 500E said:
JB and Lynn,



Do Porsche and Jaguar concours add points for mileage?
Click to expand...



Nope, no adjustment for miles.



But there are plenty of sub classes so a high mileage 30 year old 911 will not have to compete against a low mileage new 996. They only compete against each other for a "Best of Show/Street" perspective.
 
MBZ 500E said:
JB and Lynn,



Do Porsche and Jaguar concours add points for mileage? I know MBCA does add points for miles. I know in Lynn's case that might be more difficult if her biggest competitor is an older restored car, which could have alot of miles prior to restoration.



JB Kudo's to you for beating out a 1000 mile/year car, that is amazing! Bet that guy was pissed!:D



I wish MBCA had a unrestored class, but I would venture to guess that it would be the same situation as PCA.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Nope, JCNA doesn't pay any attention to mileage whatsoever. There are two divisions in JCNA -- "Concours" (all parts of the car are judged) or "Driven" (which has nothing to do with whether or not the car is driven; but in the Driven class, the engine bay is not judged). Those two divisions are then broken down so you compete against your model (e.g., Mark II, E-types , XJ, XJS, etc.) My car, which was driven daily last year, and to Concours in SC and Houston, had about 4,000 miles on it, but I showed it in Concours, not Driven division.
 
Lynn said:
..........There are two divisions in JCNA -- "Concours" (all parts of the car are judged) or "Driven" (which has nothing to do with whether or not the car is driven; but in the Driven class, the engine bay is not judged).
Click to expand...



So is under carriage judged in both Concours and Driven? Or in neither?
 
Lynn said:
Luckily for us, "in neither." You guys are way too hardcore for an amateur like me. :D
Click to expand...



Well I'm still the amateur in this regard as well. In "Street" we do the engine, but no under carriage. Just "Full Concours" does that.



Will likely do some Full Concours events next year for the first time. I took a look at the under carriage the other day :shocked It wasn't pretty:(
 
JB, when you decide to show in Full Concours will you continue to drive your car? If yes.....then you definitely are a masochist.:D



MBCA only judges undercarriage in show class, BUT I've heard from many that the judges always take a peek to see the condition of the undercarriage and wheel wells. I'll find out soon enough.



Actually at the HB Concours all the judges checked wheel wells and undercarriage and I showed street class on that event. Learned my lesson and have spent some time cleaning it up. Not white glove by any means but presentable.
 
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