can't seem to not scratch it

[imported_tuffluck]

i polished my bmw with pads + polish about 2 months ago and BFWD was the last coat. i wash it with optimum and use a mitt and microfiber drying/finishing towels bought from pakshak. i usually use the mit, then the drying towel, then a finishing towel to soak up anything left behind. my car is dark blue so sometimes it is necessary to go over it with 2 towels since it will otherwise show streaks.



still, it seems after 2 or 3 washes, i already noticed visible swirls. is that normal or am i doing something wrong? i wash the towels after every use and no dirt or grime appears to be caught in them. i just don't remember having such a problem with my last blue car, but maybe that paint was just a little tougher.



any tips?

 

[Street5927]

It might be dirt/dust in the wash media, or in the dry media. I would try new towels/sponges and try a little QD when you are drying. I have noticed that reduced drying induced marring/scratches. Also, I have noticed that if you use bleach when washing towels, that they tend to scratch.

 

[TLMitchell]

What year BMW? Some '06/'07s were notorious for soft paint, particularly Jet Black. I wouldn't be surprised if some others were soft as well.



Any time you touch the finish with anything you risk marring. On one of my super-soft jobs I blowdry with the blower from my Shop Vac leaving little residue to mop up. I use a QD for extra lubricity and a WW to finish drying any residue. Still get some marring, it's just the nature of the beast.



TL

 

[imported_tuffluck]

it is a 2007 bmw and it seems super soft to me compared to my last blue car that was nearly the same shade, but i don't have anything else for comparison.



i will try the QD on the microfiber next time. i guess a little streaking is better than marring.

 

[richy]

As mentioned, some BMW paint is as soft as butter. Look into either CQuartz or the new version of Opti Coat to protect it and give the surface more scratch resistance.

 

[AeroCleanse]

As mentioned, some BMW paint is as soft as butter. Look into either CQuartz or the new version of Opti Coat to protect it and give the surface more scratch resistance.

The Jetta I just did seemed to have very soft paint, also black. I applied GTechniq C1 to it. Hope that improves the scratch resistance.

 

[TLMitchell]

i will try the QD on the microfiber next time. i guess a little streaking is better than marring.

I've yet to have any streaking with FK425. Plus it's super-slick, real nice when drying with a WW.



TL

 

[tssdetailing]

don't QD the towel. Rinse the car and while its still wet spray QD on the paint. Then dry it with your MF towel of choice. The QD will help the towel glide over the paint so much easier and give your sealant a boost.

 

[imported_tuffluck]

don't QD the towel. Rinse the car and while its still wet spray QD on the paint. Then dry it with your MF towel of choice. The QD will help the towel glide over the paint so much easier and give your sealant a boost.

i have fk425, so that is what i will use. that makes a lot more sense than putting it on the towel



i took the car to the dealer and they "washed" it, or whatever that means. swirled it to hell, so now i have to start over and rebuff only about 2 months after i buffed it the first time. so, i want to make sure i get my washing process down so this time i can hopefully avoid the scratches.



pretty sure this paint is too soft, because the marring seen from terry-cloth drying is just remarkable on my car.

 

[Accumulator]

tuffluck- Sorry to hear about all the problems you're having, between the wash-induced marring and the dealer's wash your user-name is sadly appropriate!



Are you using the conventional Optimum shampoo or ONR?



Don't be too surprised by the terry's marring. Even seemingly very soft terrycloth can mar most automotive paints IME, even if it's so mild as to not be obvious for a while.



Here are some sorta-random questions to consider, maybe something will be helpful:



What does the marring look like? What is mean is...are the scratches long or short? Straight or cicular/elliptical? Do they seem to be related to the washing, the drying, or both equally?



Have you CD-tested your wash/dry media lately?



Are you using a foamgun?



Are you dealing with "gritty winter filth"?



Are you washing entire panels, or even major portions of an especially dirty one, without rinsing/redunking your wash medium?



Maybe your answers to the above can help us figure out what's going one :think:



Oh, and I hardly *ever* get streaking with the QD-while-drying approach. When I do, I just quit using that particular QD on that car/LSP (or maybe quit using that QD altogether).

 

[imported_Bert]

If you are getting paint marring from washing the car (you washing it, not the dealer), it is important to try to determine what part of the wash is marring the paint and focus on remedying that part. Odds are, the marring is coming from your wash media while washing the paint or from your drying towel while drying the car. To determine which is the culprit, (assuming your paint is still in good enough shape to identify new swirls) wash the car in one direction (side to side or up and down) and then dry the car in a different direction. Then inspect the paint in the sun. If you find new swirls, the direction of the swirls will clue you in to whether washing or drying is marring the paint.



If washing is marring the paint, consider reconsidering what wash media you use (wool mitt, microfiber wrapped sponge, microfiber towel, boars hair brush, etc.). Also, are you using a soap with ample lubricity. If you bought it at Walmart, maybe not. Try one of the better washes like Optimum's, Griots, or Duragloss's (which can be found at several Napa's and Car Quest's). If your wash media and wash are not the problems, you can trying misting Optimum No Rinse on the panels after rinsing them but before applying your wash media. Hopefully the ONR could help encapsulate the stuff on your paint before it is drug accross the paint. If that doesn't work, you may have to use a foam gun and do a foam gun wash. That is where you have the foam gun in one hand and your wash media in the other and the area you are washing immediately before the wash media hits it. Look on You Tube, there are videos showing this. Or you could look up Accumulators method of washing. Slow process but show keep your paint pretty marr free.



Also, consider your LSP (Last Step Product ie your sealant or wax). Some LSP's are better at shedding dirt and stuff better than others. One that comes to mind if Finish Kare's High Temp Wax. Several people on here have marvelled how much dirt comes off just from rinsing. The more dirt you get off from rinsing, the less that is on your paint when wiping it with wash media and risking marring. Just last weekend I tried Optimum Car Wax (spray wax) over my Ultima Paint Guard Plus. I drove in the rain a few days ago and was amazed at how little dirt and road grime was on my car. Normally after a drive in the rain, the rear of my car and the rear corner panels are pretty dirty. After Optimum Car Wax, minimal dirt on the car. It was like the rain alone removed much of it.



If your swirls come from drying there are a few things you can try such as spraying a QD on the paint as mentioned above. You can use the blot method with your towel where you just lie your drying towel on the paint and instead of wiping, just lightly pat the towel to absorb water. If it does turn out to be drying, consider your towel and how good of a quality they are. If marring is from drying, stick with your better (unfortunately more expensive in most cases) towels.



If you decide to give blotting a try, using a leaf blower to remove much of the water before hand can speed up that process.

 

[imported_tuffluck]

thanks for all of the help. i use ONR and all of my mits/WW/microfibers are from pakshak, so i suspect that i have good quality products i am using.



i like the idea of washing one way and drying another to see how the streaks occur. so far, they just look brief and swirly in motion, which truthfully could be either the mit or the drying.



i think the QD is a great first step also, to see how much that helps.

 

[Accumulator]

If you are getting paint marring from washing the car (you washing it, not the dealer), it is important to try to determine what part of the wash is marring the paint and focus on remedying that part. Odds are, the marring is coming from your wash media while washing the paint or from your drying towel while drying the car...

Not intending to :argue but I would *not* think it'd be the wash/dry media. But then I'm assuming that any such stuff has passed the CD-test.



I would think that the marring comes from abrasive [stuff] getting pressed against the paint and then moved. When the stuff is "trapped" in the wash mitt/whatever, it can still come into contact with the paint.

If washing is marring the paint, consider reconsidering what wash media you use (wool mitt, microfiber wrapped sponge, microfiber towel, boars hair brush, etc.).

Once you CD-test to make sure the media are OK in the first place, consider whether the dirt gets trapped (and then dragged across the paint) as opposed to being flooded/flushed/etc. across-and-off the surface. If you find dirt in your rinse bucket, consider that between the time it got stuck to/in the wash mitt/etc. in the first place and the time you rinse it out...well, during that interval it's getting dragged across the paint.

you could look up Accumulators method of washing. Slow process but show keep your paint pretty marr free.

I really do think that once you get the hang of it, my (current...somewhat different from the method explained in the first section

of that thead) method goes pretty fast. I'm not sure how much my boosted water pressure factors in, but I'm usually able to do the initial passes (with the BHB) without even stopping to rinse out the BHB; it rinses clean from the foamgun's output.

Also, consider your LSP (Last Step Product ie your sealant or wax). Some LSP's are better at shedding dirt and stuff better than others. One that comes to mind if Finish Kare's High Temp Wax. Several people on here have marvelled how much dirt comes off just from rinsing.

Yeah, the FK1000P is pretty amazing in that regard. I gave the Yukon a good inspection prior to selling it; after 21 months of merely washing it, it was *still* quite marring-free for a year-round dog-hauler. I could find maybe a dozen light RISS that I would've eventually corrected had I kept it, but they were the sort of thing that *NOBODY* other than an Autopian would ever notice, much less care about.



No, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, but rather I'm trying to say it it *is* possible to keep marring to a minimum if you go about it right. It's that "going about it right" that's the trick...from your LSP to your wash supplies to your technique, a lot of stuff factors in.

i use ONR and all of my mits/WW/microfibers are from pakshak, so i suspect that i have good quality products i am using.

While others here do fine with ONR, maybe you're like me...I simply cannot avoid marring (to the extent that *I* insist on) when I wash with ONR. I can do OK, but sooner or later I scratch it up in a way I simply don't do with my conventional washes.



I bet I come across as a real ONR-hater, but that's not really the case. It's just that even though I *do* take all the relevent factors into consideration, I just can't keep things perfect with that approach. *IMO* that's because at the bottom line, I'm still getting dirt stuck to the mitt and then moving that contaminated mitt across the paint. Even with ONR's great encapsulation, some of the dirt ends up abrading the finish.

 

[imported_tuffluck]

Not intending to :argue but I would *not* think it'd be the wash/dry media. But then I'm assuming that any such stuff has passed the CD-test.



I would think that the marring comes from abrasive [stuff] getting pressed against the paint and then moved. When the stuff is "trapped" in the wash mitt/whatever, it can still come into contact with the paint.







Once you CD-test to make sure the media are OK in the first place, consider whether the dirt gets trapped (and then dragged across the paint) as opposed to being flooded/flushed/etc. across-and-off the surface. If you find dirt in your rinse bucket, consider that between the time it got stuck to/in the wash mitt/etc. in the first place and the time you rinse it out...well, during that interval it's getting dragged across the paint.



I really do think that once you get the hang of it, my (current...somewhat different from the method explained in the first section

of that thead) method goes pretty fast. I'm not sure how much my boosted water pressure factors in, but I'm usually able to do the initial passes (with the BHB) without even stopping to rinse out the BHB; it rinses clean from the foamgun's output.





Yeah, the FK1000P is pretty amazing in that regard. I gave the Yukon a good inspection prior to selling it; after 21 months of merely washing it, it was *still* quite marring-free for a year-round dog-hauler. I could find maybe a dozen light RISS that I would've eventually corrected had I kept it, but they were the sort of thing that *NOBODY* other than an Autopian would ever notice, much less care about.



No, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, but rather I'm trying to say it it *is* possible to keep marring to a minimum if you go about it right. It's that "going about it right" that's the trick...from your LSP to your wash supplies to your technique, a lot of stuff factors in.





While others here do fine with ONR, maybe you're like me...I simply cannot avoid marring (to the extent that *I* insist on) when I wash with ONR. I can do OK, but sooner or later I scratch it up in a way I simply don't do with my conventional washes.



I bet I come across as a real ONR-hater, but that's not really the case. It's just that even though I *do* take all the relevent factors into consideration, I just can't keep things perfect with that approach. *IMO* that's because at the bottom line, I'm still getting dirt stuck to the mitt and then moving that contaminated mitt across the paint. Even with ONR's great encapsulation, some of the dirt ends up abrading the finish.

i apologize accumulator, but i don't keep up with this forum as well as i should, so i didn't know some people didn't like ONR. but i'm pretty sure it is exactly what you describe in that stuff is getting caught in the mit and being dragged across the paint. i never used ONR on my camaro, and i never really had marring problems when washing. can you post me your washing/drying link?



also people mentioned the QD trick, just want to make sure i understand the process right, so is it:



mit, WW, QD, microfiber finishing (for final drying), or is it

mit, QD, WW, microfiber finishing



?

 

[Accumulator]

tuffluck- Either of the approaches you mentioned will work OK for the drying with QD, I've done it with all combos of WWs and regular MFs. I've gradually gotten away from making a major production out of the drying and now I just do what I described above. Get all the dirt off when you wash and use very soft MFs, then the drying shouldn't be an issue.



What *is* the issue is what you do to get the dirt off the car. I try to "dislodge and flush" so the dirt gets floated off the car rather than trapped in my wash medium; my rinse water stays very clean even when I do a filthy vehicle. That's because the dirt isn't getting trapped in something like the mitt (where it could end up scratching the paint). I get the "big stuff" off with the Boar's Hair Brush ("BHB") and the use a slightly more aggressive pass with a mitt to get the more tenacious "road film"-type dirt off. And if a BHB or mitt is touching the car, I'm spraying foamgun output (I don't really think of it as "foam" as it's much thinner than that) at the point where the BHB/mitt touches the paint. That provides lots of lubrication and good flushing.



If you look in the Guide to Detailing section, you'll find a thread titled "Accumulator's Non-marring Wash Technique" . I never rewrote it though, and what I do these days is a bit more reasonable.



Thumbnail sketch version follows..



Washing:

-Rinse

-Presoak with foamgun

-Initial pass(es) with BHB, spraying foamgun output at point of bristle-to-paint contact. Use short, interrupted, "jiggling" motions so foamgun output has a chance to flush away dirt as soon as the BHB dislodges it.

-Rinse

-Rewash using mitt and foamgun, spraying the foamgun output the sam was as with the BHB. Rinse mitt *OFTEN*

-Inspect and redo mitt/foamgun combo as needed until clean

-If anything just won't come off, don't "scrub" with mitt, use ultra-fine clay instead and then rewash



Drying:

-Blow off excess water with AirWant

-Dry with very soft WWMFs that I've sprayed with a *LITTLE* QD (or just spray QD on damp car and wipe dry)

-Blow water out of nooks and crannies with air compressor

 

[imported_Bence]

Listen to Accumulator tuffluck.



But I have other questions: Can you describe it exactly how many passes are you doing with the ONR'd mitt over a given area? How often do you rinse the mitt? In which direction are you moving the mitt? Please describe the amount of water you lift with the mitt (splashing/soaking wet or lightly wrung mitt). How much pressure do you apply with the mitt over the surface? How do you divide the car when washing? Which parts do you wash last?

 

[Accumulator]

Bence brings up some very good points. Two schools of thought-1) the least touching the better, vs. 2) the least aggressive touching the better. Needless to say, I lean towards the latter.



If you're *VERY* gentle (e.g., virtually zero applied pressure) it's hard to get the dirt off, so you might have to go over a given area many times to get it clean. And if you *fail* to get it clean, the residual dirt will cause marring when you dry.



If you're *not* very gentle when you wash, the dirt will cause marring during that step.



And with regard to rinsing, think of it the way I approach claying- once it picks up something abrasive, it turns into sandpaper. Yeah, even with the ONR-voodoo

 

[amcdonal86]

ONR voodoo? Ahahahahaha!

 

[Legacy]

The Jetta I just did seemed to have very soft paint, also black. I applied GTechniq C1 to it. Hope that improves the scratch resistance.

There's a thread out on DW about a black Aston Martin with extremely soft paint. He spent 40 hrs. and no matter what he did he still had marring under a sun gun. Now this is a seasoned pro and when he used Gtechniq C1 problem solved.

 

[extrabolts]

I'm following this thread with interest. I have a 14 year old black 4runner that I just can't seem to keep scratch free. I've been tweaking my approach for about a year now, and it has gotten a lot better, but even after a wash or two I can see scratching when looking directly at the sun's reflection in the paint. It looks fine even from 2-3 feet in full sun, until I look directly at the reflection and then it looks like itty bitty spiders live within my paint and dragged some webs around.



Things that have helped, but not fixed, my micromarring:



- Two bucket method with grit guard in rinse bucket.

- Not ringing out sponge / letting it drain before putting it on paint. I take the sponge straight out of the bucket with water / suds running and start at the top, let the suds drip down to cover the panel.

- I do the top half of a panel / door with one side of the sponge and the lower part with the other side. Then rinse and move on. I used to do a couple of panels at a time, but I'm wondering if even half a door per side of a sponge is too much. I wash my cars every 1 or 2 weeks so there rarely is anything major on it.

- Trying plusher microfiber drying towels / using detail spray / only using a vac n blo to blow dry.



I've been "normal population" successful, but have not yet met my standards. I want a swirl free wash without needing 4 hoses, 10 buckets, 5 wash mits, etc (no offense!). On two of my cars I'd consider them swirl free with my current approach, but the black, soft paint 4runner can't resist micromarring. Unfortunately I'm at the point where I'm running low on paint and can't compound anymore, so I've added glazes and more filling-type LSPs into the mix. But I really don't want to glaze / LSP a SUV every few washes just to fill micromarring, I want to cut out the initial micromarring to begin!