Anthony O.
New member
I post on several detailing forums and on the Webcars forum I ran across these statements by Bud Abraham. The following exchange is between he and myself. I will allow the posts to speak for themselves and my purpose for this posting is to aquire the insight of any and all who have had an experience along these lines.
I would ask that you please post your (hopefully) unbiased opinions and any and all photos that you may have to support your stance, either positive or negative.
Thank You,
Anthony
Date: 04-16-04 19:50
Yes, I have used DA's we use them in our detailing process to apply and remove wax and/or sealant.
I even use them sometimes to apply a one step product, but I have to buff that off with a rotary and polishing pad to get any result.
The use of a DA is not done anywhere to remove swirls other than a few detailers. Body shops do not even use a DA other than for sanding off putty.
All of their buffers used a high speed buffer.
The key guy at Ford who deals with their paint finish area states that only a rotary buffer will correct and remove swirls.
All chemical and paint companies say the same thing.
What you think you are doing is not removing but only filling in the swirls.
You need friction and heat and you do not get that with an orbital. You get more friction with your h and than with an orbital.
Sorry to disagree but I have tested and tried it numerous times.
I have no axe to grind with orbitals, I sell both types of tools.
Regards
Bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-16-04 20:04
Bud.......your explanation is seems to be contradictory
Can you "fill" swirls in with a "non-filling" product while using a DA, such as the Cyclo?
If not then what is "filling" the swirls?
If YES, then is the DA able to shift the clear coat? Or please explain how it "fills", thank you.
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-16-04 23:00
Anthony:
I hate to disappoint you but I was just called this week by the owner of Cyclo wanting to know why I have such negative comments to make about the Cyclo tool. I told him that it was not a case of being negative, it was that personally I do not like a dual headed product and explained why.
Then we got into the discussion about filling and removing compound swirls and he agreed that his tool did not have the speed and friction to remove the swirls but only fill them.
I have no idea what you are trying to get at with your words.
Bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-17-04 22:21
Bud, thanks for the reply and my words are rather simple really.......you claim, as does the Cyclo maker, that the Cyclo is just filling the swirls but how can that be if one is using a NON filling polish, like Menzernas Final Polish?
What is "filling" the swirls? I could understand if one is using a glaze like 3M IHG or #7.
I am not stating that the PC or Cyclo can perform like a rotary because it doesn't but if used correctly they can give some impressive results.
I will attempt to demonstrate this with photos as time allows.
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-18-04 00:38
Anthony:
Thanks for the clarification.
1. What is a "non-filling" swirl remover? Could you describe the characteristics of this product. It would seem to me that any swirl remover that has oils and possibly waxes of some type in it would fill.
2. No one is challenging that the Cyclo will not provide, as you say, some impressive results. That is not what is under dispute.
What is under dispute is the blanket statement that a Cyclo will remove buffer swirls.
That statement, as originally made is much different than, "will provide some impressive results."
For those on the forum who are new to the industry to make a blanket statement like that would lead them to believe that they do not need to have a rotary buffer, which I, as a somewhat knowledgeable person in the detail business would totally disagree with.
If a detailer is going to restore paint finishes, that is, correct imperfections like scratches; oxidation; dulling; etc. They must have a rotary buffer as their first line of attack.
If you agree with that why waste time with an orbital trying to get swirls out when you know that a rotary buffer; at a lower speed (1300RPM) a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover will do it perfectly?
Thanks for asking the question.
bud A
buda
Date: 04-18-04 01:25
Bud,
I NEVER wrote that a Cyclo or PC can perform or do what a rotary can do. You have made the blanket statement that a Cyclo or PC can not and will not remove swirls, I disagree.
Now if a person is a weekend warrior and they have some light swirls/scratches it would be in their best interest to use their PC first before going and 1) buying a rotary with little knowledge of using one or 2) seeking a "pro" to do it for them, would you not agree?
My statement of "impressive results" is along the lines of swirl/scratch removal. I have custom made pads for my Cyclo plus I have come to discover some unique materials that work great with certain products, and when combined with proper use, provide excellant results. As said I will try to provide photos of this when I get the chance.
Now as for a "non-filling" product, how about 3M's Perfect-It III ? It claims on the bottle to be a "Swirl mark Remover (non-filling)" Either 3M is in error and guilty of false advertising or their Perfect-It Machine Glaze is a "non-filling" product. Which one would you say it is?
Thank you,
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-18-04 01:41
Anthony:
This has become a two-way debate between you and I to see who is right and/or wrong.
I think we have both presented our ideas to those on the forum and they can draw their own conclusions.
I am not interested in proving you wrong, just in reporting what I think are the facts, as you are too. We have done that so let us drop it.
Regards
bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-18-04 21:03
Bud......lol
I like the line you write "I am not interested in proving you wrong" You are so arrogant at times it is incredible. You have presumed that my goal in this "debate" is to prove you wrong and myself right but this is not my intention at all. If you go back and read my posts in their proper context you will see that I only asked you a question because I was puzzled by your statement that a PC or Cyclo can't remove swirls but can only "fill" them. I then asked the logical question of what if one is using a NON-filling product? By which your reply was "What is a non-filling product?" I then gave you an example made by 3M, correct?
My goal is to hopefully show, by way of pictures even, that the Cyclo or the PC can remove swirls. Does this make me right and you wrong? Not in my book but rather it makes us all more informed. Now before anyone feels I am bashing Bud or beating a dead horse please understand that I have the utmost respect for Bud and his knowledge and contributions to the detailing industry, my knowledge pales in comparison, BUT with that said I must also acknowledge that Bud can dish it out but has a hard time taking it and I am sure others understand this also.
Could it be that a PC or Cyclo can remove swirls and Bud is worried that if it can that he may be seen as being "wrong" in the eyes of others and would rather drop it now? Everyone who follows the detailing forums understands that I am not confrontational and that I am never afraid to admit I am wrong and I just might be in error here also and I will freely admit such if I am unable to demonstrate that the Cyclo can remove light swirls/scratches.
Thank You,
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
This is the last post on the subject as of 4/18/04 9:17 Pm central time. As already noted I would appreciate any input in their personal experiences.
Thanks again,
Anthony
I would ask that you please post your (hopefully) unbiased opinions and any and all photos that you may have to support your stance, either positive or negative.
Thank You,
Anthony
Date: 04-16-04 19:50
Yes, I have used DA's we use them in our detailing process to apply and remove wax and/or sealant.
I even use them sometimes to apply a one step product, but I have to buff that off with a rotary and polishing pad to get any result.
The use of a DA is not done anywhere to remove swirls other than a few detailers. Body shops do not even use a DA other than for sanding off putty.
All of their buffers used a high speed buffer.
The key guy at Ford who deals with their paint finish area states that only a rotary buffer will correct and remove swirls.
All chemical and paint companies say the same thing.
What you think you are doing is not removing but only filling in the swirls.
You need friction and heat and you do not get that with an orbital. You get more friction with your h and than with an orbital.
Sorry to disagree but I have tested and tried it numerous times.
I have no axe to grind with orbitals, I sell both types of tools.
Regards
Bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-16-04 20:04
Bud.......your explanation is seems to be contradictory
Can you "fill" swirls in with a "non-filling" product while using a DA, such as the Cyclo?
If not then what is "filling" the swirls?
If YES, then is the DA able to shift the clear coat? Or please explain how it "fills", thank you.
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-16-04 23:00
Anthony:
I hate to disappoint you but I was just called this week by the owner of Cyclo wanting to know why I have such negative comments to make about the Cyclo tool. I told him that it was not a case of being negative, it was that personally I do not like a dual headed product and explained why.
Then we got into the discussion about filling and removing compound swirls and he agreed that his tool did not have the speed and friction to remove the swirls but only fill them.
I have no idea what you are trying to get at with your words.
Bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-17-04 22:21
Bud, thanks for the reply and my words are rather simple really.......you claim, as does the Cyclo maker, that the Cyclo is just filling the swirls but how can that be if one is using a NON filling polish, like Menzernas Final Polish?
What is "filling" the swirls? I could understand if one is using a glaze like 3M IHG or #7.
I am not stating that the PC or Cyclo can perform like a rotary because it doesn't but if used correctly they can give some impressive results.
I will attempt to demonstrate this with photos as time allows.
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-18-04 00:38
Anthony:
Thanks for the clarification.
1. What is a "non-filling" swirl remover? Could you describe the characteristics of this product. It would seem to me that any swirl remover that has oils and possibly waxes of some type in it would fill.
2. No one is challenging that the Cyclo will not provide, as you say, some impressive results. That is not what is under dispute.
What is under dispute is the blanket statement that a Cyclo will remove buffer swirls.
That statement, as originally made is much different than, "will provide some impressive results."
For those on the forum who are new to the industry to make a blanket statement like that would lead them to believe that they do not need to have a rotary buffer, which I, as a somewhat knowledgeable person in the detail business would totally disagree with.
If a detailer is going to restore paint finishes, that is, correct imperfections like scratches; oxidation; dulling; etc. They must have a rotary buffer as their first line of attack.
If you agree with that why waste time with an orbital trying to get swirls out when you know that a rotary buffer; at a lower speed (1300RPM) a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover will do it perfectly?
Thanks for asking the question.
bud A
buda
Date: 04-18-04 01:25
Bud,
I NEVER wrote that a Cyclo or PC can perform or do what a rotary can do. You have made the blanket statement that a Cyclo or PC can not and will not remove swirls, I disagree.
Now if a person is a weekend warrior and they have some light swirls/scratches it would be in their best interest to use their PC first before going and 1) buying a rotary with little knowledge of using one or 2) seeking a "pro" to do it for them, would you not agree?
My statement of "impressive results" is along the lines of swirl/scratch removal. I have custom made pads for my Cyclo plus I have come to discover some unique materials that work great with certain products, and when combined with proper use, provide excellant results. As said I will try to provide photos of this when I get the chance.
Now as for a "non-filling" product, how about 3M's Perfect-It III ? It claims on the bottle to be a "Swirl mark Remover (non-filling)" Either 3M is in error and guilty of false advertising or their Perfect-It Machine Glaze is a "non-filling" product. Which one would you say it is?
Thank you,
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
Date: 04-18-04 01:41
Anthony:
This has become a two-way debate between you and I to see who is right and/or wrong.
I think we have both presented our ideas to those on the forum and they can draw their own conclusions.
I am not interested in proving you wrong, just in reporting what I think are the facts, as you are too. We have done that so let us drop it.
Regards
bud Abraham
buda
Date: 04-18-04 21:03
Bud......lol
I like the line you write "I am not interested in proving you wrong" You are so arrogant at times it is incredible. You have presumed that my goal in this "debate" is to prove you wrong and myself right but this is not my intention at all. If you go back and read my posts in their proper context you will see that I only asked you a question because I was puzzled by your statement that a PC or Cyclo can't remove swirls but can only "fill" them. I then asked the logical question of what if one is using a NON-filling product? By which your reply was "What is a non-filling product?" I then gave you an example made by 3M, correct?
My goal is to hopefully show, by way of pictures even, that the Cyclo or the PC can remove swirls. Does this make me right and you wrong? Not in my book but rather it makes us all more informed. Now before anyone feels I am bashing Bud or beating a dead horse please understand that I have the utmost respect for Bud and his knowledge and contributions to the detailing industry, my knowledge pales in comparison, BUT with that said I must also acknowledge that Bud can dish it out but has a hard time taking it and I am sure others understand this also.
Could it be that a PC or Cyclo can remove swirls and Bud is worried that if it can that he may be seen as being "wrong" in the eyes of others and would rather drop it now? Everyone who follows the detailing forums understands that I am not confrontational and that I am never afraid to admit I am wrong and I just might be in error here also and I will freely admit such if I am unable to demonstrate that the Cyclo can remove light swirls/scratches.
Thank You,
Anthony
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
This is the last post on the subject as of 4/18/04 9:17 Pm central time. As already noted I would appreciate any input in their personal experiences.
Thanks again,
Anthony
