Can Carnauba wax be topped over a sealant?

machboy said:
So then there is really no way to get the glow of nauba with the protection of a sealant? I only ask because people always remark when I use a wax as my LSP. I'd love to be able to do fam/friends car's the same way but the lsp has to last a few months.
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Some waxes, such as Collinite 476S, last at least as long as most sealants. IME, the primary protection advantages of sealants come from the ability to heavily layer them. If I can only apply one coat of something, I get better protection and durability from the Collinite than I do from a single coat of the sealants I use.



And yeah, AIO + Collinite is a great combo. My fave is Autoglym SRP + 476S, which is what I used back when I did cars for family and friends.
 
Thanks Accumulator! Love the wow factor of carnuaba but I wont be able to wax these cars every month. Looks like Collinite is the way to go. How is 845?
 
machboy said:
How is 845?
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*VERY* good product, zero trim-staining (I use it on black plastic trim), quite user-friendly. BUT....the durability can vary from quite good to merely mediocre.



I like and use 845, and I sometimes like to do a "Collinite sandwich" with 845 then 476S then 845 again. But I'd choose between that and the SRP/476S approach. With SRP (and other AIO type bases) I generally just top with 476S.
 
Thanks for all the expert input!!! I love the UPGP, but how do you apply UPGP without streaks?? I spritz the UPGP once onto the applicator per panel, but I still end up with a bit of streaking.



What is your take of UPGP? Is UPGP a good sealant? From what I gather from the responses, I guess there is no point in applying a Carnauba wax on top of the UPGP?



Victor
 
I've been on this board for what, maybe 5, maybe 8 years.

This topic is always active, in one form or another.



Contemplate a couple of premises:



Wax actually melts/evaporates at about 160 degrees.

Sealants melt/evaporate at 460 degrees.



Sealants require a minimum of 12 hours to truly cure.



Reality? Consumers don't appreciate the carnauba 'glow' on their minivan.



Best advice I've heard over the years?



"I never made real money until I stopped chasing the perfect wax."

Credit to that wacky Superior Shine...
 
Jimmy Buffit said:
Contemplate a couple of premises:



Wax actually melts/evaporates at about 160 degrees....
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I've always figured that melting point must change once a wax has "cured" (scare-quotes intentional as I do recongnize the diffs between waxes and sealants) :think:



Not intending this as an :argue or anything like that (and I trust you know me better than that ;) ), but I just *wonder* about the whole melting point thing. The only evidence I've ever seen of it is when I use Souveran on the Jag; it fails first on the oh-so-hot bonnet but even that isn't anything dramatic. The hood gets way too hot to touch dozens of times before there's any change and the wax there just needs redone a little while before that on the rest of the car.



I mean...waxes like #16 (consider the paraffin content issue) hold up just fine on black cars in hot climates...cars that get so hot you can't even think about touching them. Scottwax even gets good durability out of Souveran on black cars in Texas!



Again, just wondering out loud about the whole wax-melting-point topic. And yeah, this topic is always active somewhere and yeah#2 the whole perfect-LSP thing is letting the tail wag the dog.
 
I am in sales for my job, and the most important part about selling something is believing in what you are selling. Most of the customers are going to see what it is that you point out to them because they don't know what they are looking for other than a well detailed car. The shine *may* be slightly better if you put the wax on top of the sealant, but chances are the customer would not be able to point out or see the difference. In that case is it really worth it? Best thing that I can think to do is pick one of your cars and put tape down the middle and then ask friends and family which side they prefer in a blind comparison... Then I would finish out the non waxed side of the car 24hrs later and see if there is a noticable difference between the two. Oh and if you could be nice enough to take pictures and post in a thread that would be awesome.





That having been said I put OOS down first and OCW on top of that on my car and I am very happy with the way that it turns out. It would seem that ease of application and longevity would be the most important issue with clients. The combo that I use seems to excel at both. That is what I have been happiest with and I have tried OOS and #16 paste on top and don't think that it looked that much better.
 
Accumulator said:
I've always figured that melting point must change once a wax has "cured" (scare-quotes intentional as I do recongnize the diffs between waxes and sealants) :think:
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Curing, if it even happens in a new covalent bond sense, would increase melting or evaporation temperature. Actually, in a thoroughly cross-linked polymer, evaporation isn't possible without first some degradation. I don't understand the earlier post that suggests first that melting and evaporation take place at the same temperature, and also that all sealants (and all waxes) behave the same. I no longer think of these things in terms of waxes or sealants because the lines are too blurry. Does carnauba content really mean that something is a wax? What if it contains carnauba and some synthetic polymer (like most "waxes" do? What if its carnauba and beeswax and montan oil and coconut oil? What if its carnauba and beeswax and functionalized PDMS? It goes on and on. Each product behaves differently, melts and boils at different temperatures, and brings its own performance characteristics to the table.
 
Accumulator said:
I've always figured that melting point must change once a wax has "cured" (scare-quotes intentional as I do recongnize the diffs between waxes and sealants) :think:



Not intending this as an :argue or anything like that (and I trust you know me better than that ;) ), but I just *wonder* about the whole melting point thing. The only evidence I've ever seen of it is when I use Souveran on the Jag; it fails first on the oh-so-hot bonnet but even that isn't anything dramatic. The hood gets way too hot to touch dozens of times before there's any change and the wax there just needs redone a little while before that on the rest of the car.



I mean...waxes like #16 (consider the paraffin content issue) hold up just fine on black cars in hot climates...cars that get so hot you can't even think about touching them. Scottwax even gets good durability out of Souveran on black cars in Texas!



Again, just wondering out loud about the whole wax-melting-point topic. And yeah, this topic is always active somewhere and yeah#2 the whole perfect-LSP thing is letting the tail wag the dog.
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Couldn't help responding to Accumulator's interesting point...



Most of today's so called "waxes" may have a substantial base of carnauba, but are almost always supplemented with some sort of polymers. Polymers change the entire molecular equation, and the typical properties of the base elements, including melting temperatures. Polymers typically make the formula's more viscuous, by elongating or making more complex, the molecular chain. So it would be no surprise to me that today's waxes hold up better under heat.



On a related point, human skin typically burns after one second of contact with a painted surface at a tempurature of 181 degrees farenheit. Now I grew up in Phoenix, and touched a lot of cars in the summer for more than one second (often while they were running), and never got burned ( although i did get burned once on a chrome ignition switch after the interior had baked in the sun), so maybe these surface temps aren't as high as we think? They were d*** hot though!



So, I'm betting that along with polymer infused waxes, and surface temps that probably aren't as hot as we really think they are, today's waxes probably hold their own pretty well in most conditions. Certainly, sealants have a greater margin, and probably hold up much better in combinations of high heat, humidity, rain, and chemical attacks.



Not trying to stir anything up here, just throwing two more cents into the fountain. :)
 
mirrormirror said:
Couldn't help responding to Accumulator's interesting point...



Most of today's so called "waxes" may have a substantial base of carnauba, but are almost always supplemented with some sort of polymers.. So it would be no surprise to me that today's waxes hold up better under heat...
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That's what I'd guess makes waxes like Collinite so durable. I chose #16 And Souveran for examples specifically because #16 is basically (AFAIK) unchanged from the origianl 1950's formulation and Souveran has lousy durability under any conditions and, well...just seems very un-sealant-like to me.



...[and] maybe these surface temps aren't as high as we think?
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This reminds me of how people these days say you should only use sealants on wheels because they get so hot :think:



I used waxes on wheels for ages and never had any problems :nixweiss
 
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