Business type?

scottabir

New member
So I am curious as to what type of business people are i.e. LLC, C-corp, S-corp, sole proprietor ect?



Do you ever wish you have picked a different type when you opened up kjnowing what you know now and didnt know then?



I have read it can get really costly to go from say an S-corp. to a LLC. and it takes a lot of paperwork, $ ect.



Thanks for any input.



Scott
 
I am currently set up as a Sole Proprietorship. It would have been about $500 in lawyer fees to have set up the llc or scorp, so i decided that could wait. This year with the changing of organization, IE: more staff, my fiance taking over my job etc... I will be spending the money to go into a LLC.



It doesn't matter if you start with a higher form of incorporation or smaller, the fees and paperwork will always be there.
 
I am in the process of getting the paperwork done for LLC. We are going to sell used cars at the same place and to cover my butt I am going to do business as a LLC. It was explained to me that if you are a Sole Prop and you get sued they can sue the business and you personally whereas if you are operating as a LLC then they can only sue the business itself. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Swoop, You are pretty close to correct, These days people will always go after the owner and the business itself. What the difference is:



Sole Prop. - You personally are the business, You personally are responsible for all debt and liability. You pay the least ammount of taxes, but are subject to the risk of losing all of your personal belongings to the business.



LLC - You are more protected here, but not totally out of the woods. The company becomes it's own entity, and is wholey responsible for itself. You would still be named the owner or managinf partner in this case. You pay more taxes, but when it comes to business and personal assets there is a very bold line. As far as lawsuits, you still have some risk involved because you personally are still the holder of the new entity.



S-corp / Corp - The business is incorporated and becomes its own. You are no longer personally responsible for the company debts insurance or lawsuits. You would be named the president, chairman, or CEO. There is a very bold line between the company and you. Your assets personally are the most secure in this format. However this is the most expensive to file for, and you pay double the taxes of an LLC. (state and Federal)



Hope this helps you out. If you have any other questions on this matter, or want a more in depth better answer let me know i am sure i can help.
 
I thought an S-corp you do NOT pay double the taxes? Only C-corp. The S-corp all the money is divided among the shareholders (just you if it is only you) and it is not taxed on the corporate level.



***edit***

I could be wrong but I thought I just read about this on the IRS and SBA websites last night, maybe I misunderstood. I am no Business major.
 
I would have to do a refresher look into the s-corp tax break down, but it is less than filing as a C. It is still alot higher than LLC or Sole/partnership. Wait untill you have to start dealing with employees and the disability insurance. It is so ridiculous, I pay $25/year for each male, and $85 for a female. When i asked the ins. Co they said it is because women get pregnant and go on leave taking disability :shrug:
 
scottabir you are right. the difference between the S and C corporations is that in a C-corp you are "double taxed." this is when the corporation as an entity pays taxes on its income. also the shareholders are taxed at an individual level also.



in a S-corp you are only "single taxed."I believe each shareholder is taxed at an individual level from dividends recieved. this is tawed just like a partnership, you also have to file an informational tax return.



FYI-congress is in the process or already has passed an new provision on the S-corp. they changed: in an S-corp, before you could only have 75 shareholders, also each person is counted as 1 shareholder. they changed it to 100 shareholders and immediate family members(brother, sister, mother father..etc) count as only 1 shareholder. i think they did this to protect the family owned and operated corporations.
 
This post is intended solely as an information source and its contents should not be construed as legal advice. Readers should not act upon the information presented without professional counsel.



There is some confusing information in this thread. Here is the skinny.



Here is a generic description of the differences:



Sole Proprietorship This is the simplest and least regulated type of organization with minimal legal start-up cost and limited the continued maintenance and paperwork. The sole proprietorship has only one owner who has total control, receives all the profits, and business income is taxed as personal income. This sole owner will be responsible for procuring all financing. However, all this simplicity comes with a high risk of personal liability. In other words, in the event the business has difficulty paying its creditors, the creditors may take the personal assets of the business owner. Additionally, the sole proprietorship ends when the owner dies.



Partnership A partnership is relatively easy to form and can provide some advantages over a sole proprietorship by allowing for more than one owner, adding additional sources of financing and other "Partners" to absorb any loses the business may incur. Profits are still taxed as personal income and in a traditional partnership, the general partners are still personally liable for the debts and liabilities of the partnership. However, Limited Partnerships ("LP") and Limited Liability Partnerships ("LLP") offer the tax advantages of a partnership with a more limited exposure to liability but with limited control.



Corporation The most complex of the business organizations is the corporation. A corporation is a legal entity which exist separately from its owners. It can have several hundred owners or just one owner who owns one hundred percent of the stock. The owners of a corporation, also know as "stockholders" are not personally liable for the debts and liabilities of the corporation like the owners of a sole proprietorship or partnership. While this configuration does shield its owners from personal liability it results in "double taxation" on earnings (earning are taxed as corporate earnings and personal earnings). A certain type of Corporation, known as a "S corporation" allows for the owners to overcome the double taxation problem, however these corporation must meet certain criteria. To form a corporation Articles of Incorporation must be filed with the Secretary of State, and By-Laws and Stockholders' Agreements should be drafted. Additionally, certain formalities as annual stockholders' meetings and meetings of the board of directors must be maintained.



Limited Liability Company The Limited Liability Company ("LLC") is a relatively new entity that is comprised of "Members" which are similar to the stockholders in a corporation. However for income tax purposes LLC are treated as partnerships, resulting in no double taxation. There are some exceptionsâ€Â¦.the âہ“check the boxâ€Â� rules allow for an LLC to be taxed as an S-Corp or C-Corp by making the proper election. A single member LLC is considered a âہ“disregardedâ€Â� entity for tax purposes by the IRS. LLC's also offer liability protection to its members. To create an LLC, Articles of Organization are filed with the Secretary of State. The members also execute an Operating Agreement which defines the relationship of between the Company and its members.



Taxes: Even thought S-Corp. tax and partnership tax are both pass through taxation there are some differences. Which is better for you depends on many factors. Discuss the tax election with a qualified accountant.



Personal Liability protection



Sole proprietorship = none.



Corporations (S and C corps): Assuming the corporation has been set up and ran properly, thereby preventing a âہ“piercing of the corporate veilâ€Â� situation the liability of the corporation stops at the entity level and the individual stockholder(s) do not have any personal liability. There are exceptions such as where a stockholder personally guaranteeâ€â„¢s the debt, whereby the stockholder is then personally liable of the corporations debt in accordance to the guaranty documentation.



LLC: In the world of law, LLCâ€â„¢s are infants. There is very little case law involving the personal liability of Members (like stockholders of corps) of an LLC. The cases that are out there that deal with this seem to indicate that an LLC will be treated like a corporation in that the normal piercing the corporate veil type of analysis will be applied to see if personal liability is attached. This is a logical conclusion because most state LLC statutes are very similar to the statutes giving rise to corporations. If anyone tells you that an LLC is less protective than a corporation they are just flat wrong (as of November 2004) and the opposite is true alsoâ€Â¦there is nothing that guaranties that a LLC is as protective as a corporation.



Which Entity?: This is a complicated answer ant can only be made on a case by case basis and usually revolves around tax treatments and/or employment taxes. Discuss this in detail with a qualified attorney. There are some special circumstances where one entity is better than another. For example. If the business was going to own real estate it is usually better to own the real estate in a separate entity from the operating business and to choose an LLC for this. The LLC offers some significant tax advantages over a corporation for owning real estate. Other considerationsâ€Â¦usually corporations require more maintenance from a paperwork stand point than a LLC. In some states the cost of forming the entities are drastically different also.



This post is limited by space and can not discuss all the intricate advantages and disadvantages of each entity; however, the importance of determining the correct entity for your business can not be stressed enough. Therefore, you should sit down and discuss your needs and how they apply to each type of entity with your Attorney and/or Accountant.
 
There are exceptions such as where a stockholder personally guaranteeâ€â„¢s the debt, whereby the stockholder is then personally liable of the corporations debt in accordance to the guaranty documentation.



Unfortunatly many creditors/investors require this from small business(corp.) that do not have a strong financial background or a stellar business/financial plan.

From what I have been reading the words "piercing the veil" have come up quite often when talking about the courts and holding corp. and their owners liable.

Therefore, you should sit down and discuss your needs and how they apply to each type of entity with your Attorney and/or Accountant.
Really good advice, from all the reading I have been trying to do this seems to be a very sound financial decision to make :)

Thanks for the really good info Bet. I appreciate you posting that.
 
Let me see if I can shed some more light on âہ“piercing the corporate veil.â€Â� Realize that the term âہ“corporateâ€Â� in the way it is used here refers to all entities (corps, LLC, etc.)



The concept of âہ“Piercing the Corporate veilâ€Â� is a term attorneys use to descript the action of getting around the limited liability aspect of stock ownership (also applies to Unit ownership in LLCâ€â„¢s). Basically the ownership structure of a corporation is such that the stock holders are not personally liable for the action of the corporation. However, there have been circumstances where plaintiffs have shown the corporation was just a âہ“veilâ€Â� for the real owner. By piercing the veil the plaintiff is able to get at the owner(s) personally. Through the years the courts through case law have developed some âہ“testâ€Â� that look at various facts to determine if the corporation was in fact a corporation or whether it was just a âہ“veilâ€Â� that an individual was hiding behind. Some examples of factors considered are: whether the corp followed all its formalities (i.e. has the required by-laws, minutes, resolutions, etc.), whether the corp was under capitalized, whether it had its own banking accounts, Tax ID numbers, etc. To say the analysis and the concept of piercing the corporation veil is complicated is an understatement. It is determined on a fact by fact analysis and every situation is unique. This is why the courts have developed âہ“testâ€Â� and analysis vs. actual hard and fast rules.



I only mention the piercing concept because it is a possibility and shows the importance of paying attention to the details. Small items such as separate tax id numbers, bank accounts, signing in the corporate capacity, etc. are all helpful to preventing the success of a âہ“piercingâ€Â� argument.



As for lending. The mere act of personally guarantying corporate debt does not open oneself up to a âہ“piercing the veilâ€Â� situation. The personal liability is limited to the Lender an in the amount and breath as set forth in the guaranty. Guaranties are always negotiable. They can be limited to dollar amounts etc. Signing a personal guaranty does not remove the limited liability aspect with regard to liability other than the loan to the Lender from the guarantor. As you stated it quite common to personally guaranty a loan (almost impossible to get away from these days). It is even some what common for landlords to request the personal guaranty of stockholders/members of corporate tenants these days.
 
If you are a LLC that is only recognized by the state not federally correct? So IF something were to go to federal court you would not personally have limited liability? Because the LLC is not recognized by the goverment?
 
If I understand your question correctly, the short and simple answer is the personal liability is the same. Entities, such as corporation and/or LLCâ€â„¢s protect their stockholders/members equally in state or federal court (at the same time the potential liability is the same in both court systems). The reason for the answer is somewhat complicated and involves an understanding the separations and relationship of Federal and State laws/governments, states rights and even understanding the differences in the Federal and State court systems. First and foremost, entities such as corporations and LLC's are âہ“authorizedâ€Â� and controlled by state statutes. The respective state statutes give the authority for the formation of the entities and they dictate the requirements for forming and day to day operations and management. The US federal government does not provide for the formation of any entities (unlike Canada) and it leaves such authority to the states and it recognizes the entities authorized by the states.



The difference between Federal and State court is basically a jurisdictional question (who has authority to hear what cases). Not every case can be heard in Federal court and not every case can be heard by State courts. The nuances of jurisdiction are somewhat complicated and difficult to explain via a post (there are whole semesters on federal jurisdiction in law school alone). Also donâ€â„¢t confuse federal tax treatment with personal liability protection. The IRS only cares that what type of taxation is being applied and that the tax bill is paid promptly and properly.
 
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