BREMBO upgrade feedback/opinions...

Jake11375 said:
I did quite a bit of research on drilled/slotted rotors last night for advantages they carry over standard rotors. I basically found they generally run 80-90 degrees cooler than standard rotors. This is apparantly the only benefit without making other changes to the braking system. It also said they warp a lot easier if they are not bedded properly though. So installation is a key factor as well.



*EDIT* Forgot to mention that the drilled rotors help vent gasses caused by pads if any.
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Where did you find this out? Also - are you sure you WANT your brakes to run cooler? Unless you're currently experiencing brake fade or other heat problems, you're fine with solid or vaned rotors.



You won't ever find any pads that vent enough gasses to warrant drilled rotors. Those haven't been in use for a long long time.



And as far as aftermarket brakes go - check out Mov'Its, those are some AMAZING brakes.
 
Never heard about the master cylinder brace before. Sounds like I should do this since I'm already spending so much on brakes and have braided lines. Do you know where I could find one for an early 90's VW?



Good discussion :)
 
Just read a few more replies.



Yes you will find pads that vent enough gasses, obviously depends on the pad. But you shold match you pads to your system. Is it a stock system get street pads, is it a high performance upgrade, get h/p pads, race system .......you get me.



A master cylinder brace is all about reducing flex in the master cylinder. When you reduce the flex the brakes have better feel and dont feel as spongy.



In terms of heat.



Street systems dont have a problem with being too cold for they heat up so quickly. So there is no problem running 80-90 degrees cooler. But street (metal) brakes also retain their heat longer and dont disapate is as well as says ceramic or carbon fibre brakes.



Getting heat into the brakes is an issue on F1 Car and other race cars, where they need to make hard stops within a certain distance from a very high speed. With a high performance street system, you are not exactly braking from 300km/h-120km/h to make the next corner. More like 60km/h to 20km/h. Out on the highway 120km/h 60km/h. You will be fine.



Brakes well all know are all about converting energy into heat. The more energy (higher the speed) you convert the hotter the brakes will be and vice versa.



Myles' Brake shopping list



AP Racing cross drilled and slotted rotors

AP Racing 6 pot callipers

AP Racing braided brake lines

AP Racing Dot 5 fluid

Modification of front guard as to have a direct flow of iar through a hose to the back of the rotor for best ventilation.



Sorry guys, i womble on i know

:nixweiss
 
There have been a lot of good points made here.

I will stray a bit and just give you my personal experience.



the advice about changing your brake fluid.. just do it... go to a place and have a power flush done.. it makes a difference.



I have a Ford Lightning.. it there is anything that will test brakes its a 4800 lb supercharged truck. It is basically a F150 with F250 brakes on it.. they worked OK.. I upgraded to EBC dimpled and slotted rotors with EBC kevlar pads.. after the breakin period I can hit them and it feels like I am going to do a nose wheelie.. :bounce I live in Dallas and these brakes have saved me from a couple of wrecks(people darting in front of me and such) in the last few months..

The downside is you cant turn this type of rotor.. so they are disposables in a sense.. :scared

Having said that, I did the swap way before my other brakes were done in, sold the old rotors, and would do it again.. I have had other L owners (locally) that are now doing the same thing.. Brakes are overlooked all too often when thinking of mods..



Dana
 
This is a very interesting discussion. The article on the MR2 page was very informative but I have to question some of the logic used in the analogy of F1 and NASCAR as the reason that drilling is a waste of time. I don’t know much of anything about NASCAR racing and its regulations. However, I do know that it is heavily regulated and that much of the regulations involve limiting the technology of the cars for a better show and it wouldn’t surprise me if the brakes on the cars are heavily regulated. F1 is really different than NASCAR. Recently they have started limiting things to attempt to bring the cost down, however F1 cars in general have the latest cutting edge technology. The rules on the brakes are very limited. They basically give size and thickness limitations and have outlawed any time of ABS systems and they regulated where the cooling ducts can be placed. The braking systems on these cars use a carbon fibre/resin brake disc and brake pad. Interestingly since both the pad and disc are made of the same material there is no bedding in process. The pads weigh only 290 grams. Both the pads and disc have a very limited life span (I have read that pads last a maximum of 800km) and each take anywhere from 3-6 months (depending one what you read) to make because of the manufacturing process and can withstand peak temperatures of 900-1000 degrees. Without being directly involved the design, manufacturer, or application of this technology who is to say why they don’t have drilled rotors (maybe the manufacturing process or temperature range or material does not allow to need it?). The MR2 article is the only article I have ever read that indicates that drilling is useless except for looks. Maybe it is right but I would want to do more investigating.



I agree that drilled rotors can be prone to easier cracking, however I have good luck on using drilled rotors on my Porsches. The manufacturer and the process used can make a huge difference in this. Porsche is regarded to have some of the best braking systems of any car produced (fading is virtually nonexistence and stopping is fantastic) and every car comes with drilled rotors from the factory. Even Porsche latest composite ceramic system comes with drilled rotors. Other articles I have read on brakes systems all basically say that drilled rotors can be prone to cracking but they also are lighter and run cooler than their solid brethren. Before jumping on the boat that drilled rotors are bad I would do some more research.
 
Good points, Brian.



I am also of the opinion that all cross-drilled and slotted are not bad. If so, why would all modern motorcycles have then instead of solid rotors? I understand that we are not comparing apples to apples, but geez, I really don't think that something which works great on bikes would be totally unusable on cars.



Also, I have read (in bike mags) that the main reasons for drilling and/or slots is weight reduction, cooling and also for breaking the surface tension of water in the rain, to maximize pad contact. I know for a fact that I can feel the difference in the wet with my Beemer (bike) with rotors with just a few slots, vs. my sport bike with cross drilled rotors.
 
SickOfItAll said:
Where did you find this out?
Click to expand...



I did a combination or searches with rotors/drilled/slotted/advantages/disadvantages. You get a lot of results and various, sometimes conflicting information. However the majority seems to believe slotted and drilled rotors both run cooler than standard rotors. A combination of the right pads and slotted rotors can result in running 100 degrees cooler or more. (high performance) There are many factors that contribute to this type of performance throughought the entire braking system. Most of waht I read also agreed that slotted/drilled rotors are prone to warp quicker than standard rotors if not bedded properly.
 
I guess I'll go with some of the suggestions on here to flush out the old brake fluid and replace with DOT 4. I'll go ahead and try the slotted rotors with some new pads (I'll never know unless I try it):) I need new pads and rotors anyway. I'm willing to spend a max of $300 on a good set of pads and rotors. I can install them myself. Any tips on bedding and anything else I may need to know? Thanks for all the input, I'm really learning a lot about braking systems, really a lot more than I expected.:xyxthumbs
 
100 degrees doesn't mean much when you have a pad that will go upto a very high temp. Check out ferodo's website, you'll see their cF stays the same for a very broad temp range. The temp of the pad makes much more difference than the temp of the rotor.



A couple of years ago I did a test of three 100 to 0 mph threshold brakes and I didnt' experience any fade.



I'm pretty sure I bedded the brakes properly and they still warped way too early. If I had a porsche I'd have no problem running OEM "cross-drilled" since the holes are made into the cast.
 
Jake,



I agree the first thing you should do is get new fluid. This can do wonders to the feel and the fading, depending on the car.



Before you spend money on rotors and pads, what problem are you trying to fix? Is it fade? Is it stopping distance? Will this be for street driving or track work? Is this for your Civic EX or something else? Determine what type of performance upgrade you want or what problem you want to solve first. This is important before you go spend money. Some of the after market "upgrades" for brakes are nothing more than fancy looking stuff that really won't be an upgrade at all.



Another thing, if looks are what you after don't be afraid to admit it. I will be the first one to admit that I love the looks of good looking brakes. When my budget and time allows I plan on having the black calipers on my 911 powder coated red like the big reds on the turbo and s models. This is a good example of bigger does not mean better. The "big reds" as they are referred to in Porsche circles use bigger and more powerful calipers and bigger rotors than the brakes on my car. However, upgrading to the big reds for my car would not really do much for performance increase for my applications (except cost a fortune). The only performance advantage they really offer over my brakes is better heat resistance and fade resistance. The fade and heat issues are non-issues on street driving (never happens). I am a novice track driver and the tracks around me are not "brake" tracks so I have never had any fade issues at the track either. It would purely be for the look.
 
Jake,



I agree the first thing you should do is get new fluid. This can do wonders to the feel and the fading, depending on the car.



Definitely doing that. :up



Before you spend money on rotors and pads, what problem are you trying to fix? Is it fade? Is it stopping distance? Will this be for street driving or track work? Is this for your Civic EX or something else?



This application will be on the Civic. Trying to get a combination of pads/rotors that will stand up to my driving. Stopping power has been "a little" weak but I think the fluid change with help that a lot. I don't track race, or street race for that matter (well, maybe 4-5 times a year) but am an aggressive driver.



Another thing, if looks are what you after don't be afraid to admit it.



I'm not buying new rotors or pads for looks, mainly like I mentioned above longevity under my driving conditions. (though the eye candy will be appreciated) :)



The only performance advantage they really offer over my brakes is better heat resistance and fade resistance. The fade and heat issues are non-issues on street driving (never happens). I am a novice track driver and the tracks around me are not "brake" tracks so I have never had any fade issues at the track either. It would purely be for the look.



Even though I don't drive at the track, I think heat resistance is what I need. Every set of rotors I've had have been replaced because of warping. (black spots only once; 2nd pair) Had my car since 97' and have gone through 3 sets of rotors. I've always taken special care not to wash them when they are too hot or anything that would change the temperature too quickly. Maybe I'm just getting cheap rotors or something.:confused:
 
Make sure to replace the rotors and and the pads at the same time and to bed them in properly. Also have the calipers inspected to make sure they are working properly. A caliper that is sticking or not retracting can cause hot spots on the rotors when parked and can lead to problems.



If you drive agressively enought to really heat up your brakes then don't use your parking brake when you park your car if you have a manual. Just leave the car in gear. Read the article on the stoptech web site I linked to earlier. It gives some really good advice on how to avoid "warping".
 
bet993 said:
I agree that drilled rotors can be prone to easier cracking, however I have good luck on using drilled rotors on my Porsches. The manufacturer and the process used can make a huge difference in this. Porsche is regarded to have some of the best braking systems of any car produced (fading is virtually nonexistence and stopping is fantastic) and every car comes with drilled rotors from the factory. Even Porsche latest composite ceramic system comes with drilled rotors. Other articles I have read on brakes systems all basically say that drilled rotors can be prone to cracking but they also are lighter and run cooler than their solid brethren. Before jumping on the boat that drilled rotors are bad I would do some more research.
Click to expand...



Lighter? Possibly - but enough to make a difference? That I would question. If you save more than a pound, maybe 2, per rotor I would be surprised.



Run cooler - not really a great benefit, unless you're overheating your brakes already. If you're not overheating your brakes, which I'd be surprised if he was, this falls under "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."



Sheds water better - Is this a problem? I've never had a problem with water interfering with my brakes, only with locking them up in the rain - which X-drilled rotors won't really fix (referring to another post)



bet993 said:
Jake,



I agree the first thing you should do is get new fluid. This can do wonders to the feel and the fading, depending on the car.



Before you spend money on rotors and pads, what problem are you trying to fix? Is it fade? Is it stopping distance? Will this be for street driving or track work? Is this for your Civic EX or something else? Determine what type of performance upgrade you want or what problem you want to solve first. This is important before you go spend money. Some of the after market "upgrades" for brakes are nothing more than fancy looking stuff that really won't be an upgrade at all.



Another thing, if looks are what you after don't be afraid to admit it. I will be the first one to admit that I love the looks of good looking brakes. When my budget and time allows I plan on having the black calipers on my 911 powder coated red like the big reds on the turbo and s models. This is a good example of bigger does not mean better. The "big reds" as they are referred to in Porsche circles use bigger and more powerful calipers and bigger rotors than the brakes on my car. However, upgrading to the big reds for my car would not really do much for performance increase for my applications (except cost a fortune). The only performance advantage they really offer over my brakes is better heat resistance and fade resistance. The fade and heat issues are non-issues on street driving (never happens). I am a novice track driver and the tracks around me are not "brake" tracks so I have never had any fade issues at the track either. It would purely be for the look.
Click to expand...



OK, going for show is a valid point. It's not something I really consider when I give advice on any topic, because I'm purely no-show, all go person - that doesn't even enter into my thought processes :p



Originally posted by Jake11375

Even though I don't drive at the track, I think heat resistance is what I need. Every set of rotors I've had have been replaced because of warping. (black spots only once; 2nd pair) Had my car since 97' and have gone through 3 sets of rotors. I've always taken special care not to wash them when they are too hot or anything that would change the temperature too quickly. Maybe I'm just getting cheap rotors or something.
Click to expand...



If you were overheating your brakes, you'd be experiencing brake fade. End of statement. Pads suffer from heat FAR more quickly than rotors do - you're either buying cheap solid, non-vaned rotors, or there's a problem somewhere else.



For now - do rotors/pads/fluid...from there, look into stainless lines.



After that, if you're still not happy, you can start looking into pulling brakes off an Integra GSR - Honda's good about making a lot of parts interchangeable, and GSR brakes (including rotors! don't use your rotors) should just bolt up. If you're not happy with GSR brakes...you can either start doing weight reduction, or you can look into a big brake kit.
 
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