Big Money Detailing - $$$

Apollo_Auto said:
Me personally, I'd rather work my way to the top instead of letting the media "make me",
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Are you implying that Dalton didn't work to get where he is? That's a pretty bold accusation, so if you're going to say that, you need to back it up.



Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but promoting your business and "hype" are different things to me. One implies robust advertising, compelling referalls, and strong personal networks. The other implies contrived publicity, artificial excitement, or outright public deception.



I'll use movies as an analogy. When an actor goes on talk shows, and radio programs to discuss his current project, that's using his network in show-businses to promote his product. When the filmmaker stands outside a theatre and pays people $50 to look at the camera and say "That movie was awesome!!", that's "hype".



Now I don't know alot about the history of Paul Dalton or his business. But there are some pretty big accusations being thrown at him, and from what I've read so far in this thread, none of them are substantiated by any kind of compelling fact.



All I see here is a guy who used his skills, his ambition, and his personal network to promote his business. And he's proven himself by maintaining a strong clientele and successful operation.



We can argue forever over whether or not he's the "best" detailer. But when it comes to running a detailing business, it's pretty obvious that few, if any, have done it better than he has.



Maybe it's me, but it seems that alot of people here think that "marketing" is some kind of underhanded, dirty trick. Or that it's cheating somehow. It seems to me that there are detailers out there who think that they should be successful just because they have a skill. Unfortunately, that's just not how business works. It takes more than that.



So to anyone who sees Paul's success and says "Bah, it's all marketing", my first reaction is that you're simply jealous. My second reaction is to say "well Einstein, maybe you should try 'marketing' yourself".



Look, I've seen the list of the 61 steps, it's been posted on here a bunch of times. And some of it is a bit 'over the top'. For example, the three steps of "clean wheels, rotate 1/4 turn, clean wheels again" could be boiled down to one step that says "clean wheels thoroughly". So yeah, you could probably paraphrase the entire 61 steps in 35 or 40 steps, but it's still the same amount of work. George Carlin summarized the ten commandments into one, but still maintained all of the intended virtues.



If he's selling 61 steps and only actually doing 54 of them, then that's dishonest and his marketing is just "hype". I haven't seen anyone present any evidence of this, so I can't conclude that the accusations or resentment toward Paul Dalton are anything other than jealousy.



There is nothing wrong with hiring a marketing firm to promote your company. It's not cheating. And it's pretty glib to say that that makes your notoriety "man-made" as opposed to "hand-made". Apollo - you're making some pretty bold accusations that suggest deceit or wrong-doing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't think I am. You allude to some evidence or hearsay that supports your claim, but you won't come out and say it. So you're only making yourself look bad.



My company puts out press releases all the time. And we refer to ourselves as a "World Class Manufacturing" facility. We emphasize that we've embraced and implemented the principles of lean manufacturing to meet customer demand on-time with exceptional levels of quality. Now there's no international committee that defines what is a "World Class Manufacturer", does that mean that we can't say that? As long as we deliver what we promise to our customers, then we haven't crossed the line from promotion to "hype".



To my knowledge, no one has offered even an anecdote that demonstrates that Paul does not deliver work that supports the claims he makes in his marketing. The closest thing I've heard is from Accumulator, regarding the uniformity of clear coat. Can someone post a link to where PD makes that claim, because I'm thinking it may have come out of context.



While achieving that level of uniformity may be impractical and unrealistic, that doesn't mean that going to that extreme wouldn't necessarily improve the car's look in the eyes of some observers. And while it's impractical, it's not impossible. Maybe that is a service that he offers to extremely wealthy and extremely discriminating clients who pay for that level of service. Every pro detailer on this board advertises "Paint Correction". Does that mean that every car that leaves their lot is completely corrected and 'flawless'? Of course it doesn't. Detailers do 90-95% swirl-free details every day, and openly admit it. It's all dependent on the balance between customer's expectation and price paid. If somebody drives up to PD's shop and says, "I want my clear coat uniform within x microns, I don't care how long it takes, or how much it costs", who would argue with that? Practical or not, if the customer's paying, and you can do the job, then go nuts!
 
Aw sh1t, I forgot "Less the Just" was following this thread. Less, after reviewing several posts from you I've come to the conclusion that you have nothing better to add to this forum than your "arguing for argument's sake" comments. Really man, what gives with you?



First of all, did I ever make derogatory comments about Mr. Dalton? I most certainly did not. In fact I did nothing but praise his tactics and success. Am I jealous of Mr. Dalton? No absolutely not. Jealousy would involve me slandering his good name, which again I have not done. I have my customers and he has his... to each his own IOW.



Now referring to your last statement,



"I want my clear coat uniform within x microns, I don't care how long it takes, or how much it costs", who would argue with that? Practical or not, if the customer's paying, and you can do the job, then go nuts!"



If you took on a job like that with a supercar (or any car for that matter), let's just say a cheapo F430 @ $200k, then you are insane, irresponsible and obviously have no clue what you're doing. It seems that your desire to learn about detailing, which is why you joined this forum in the first place (well in your case, maybe not the only reason), has been clouded by your insatiable thirst for bickering.



Do yourself, and us, a favor and stop challenging everyone's opinions and start making some useful comments instead. Also, please don't get into it with me about paint correction...



Oh and me "looking bad"... :). I personally know some of the people who helped PD get to where he is today, I know a bit about how he started doing all the supercars that he does and I know a little about his "super wax" and how "super" it really is, but I shan't disclose that information because it's really not relevant and it's privileged information to those of us who understand and "live" the business.
 
wow... really? Just because someone has a different opinion than someone else it has to because they are simply jealous?? Simply AMAZING! I have to be jealous of just about everyone then?



Calling PD a marketing hype is nothing more than saying the truth. It dosen't by any means take away from his skills. The guy is damn good. but calling a spade a spade is all anyone is doing here. Paul hypes up his company to obtain his clients. It works for him and his business. But anyone who knows anything about real detailing knows he's "suger coating" the processes. 61 steps... really? I suppose if I really broke some of my processes down like he does I could easily have a 100 step detail... But I don't.. why? Because it's stupid and no one in my market gives a rats butt about how many steps it takes to get the results they want. Does that make me less of a detailer? I guess it must... Dang now I have to go get better marketing to get myself some respect again HAHAHA! whatever man...



Paul is probably one of the best out there. I don't think anyone has said otherwise in this thread. But there are pleanty out there just as good that don't need or want the marketing hype. To each thier own and it has nothing at all to do with being jealous. get that monkey off your back right now...
 
Less said:
..The closest thin..[to legit criticism] I've heard is from Accumulator, regarding the uniformity of clear coat. Can someone post a link to where PD makes that claim, because I'm thinking it may have come out of context.
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I wish I could pinpoint where I saw that, I recognize that there's no way for me to fairly support my contention without being able to do so. It was on some other detailing forum, linked through a post here at Autopia, but that's all I remember about it other than the comment on the uniformity. I think it *might've* been on a yellow car...sorry, I just can't remember the specifics.



That said, I read the post in question quite carefully, and more than once, just because I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. No, it was *not* some out-of-context excerpt. That's what he said, though I can't recall exactly how many microns he said (it sure wasn't many, maybe three or five).



He didn't say he was gonna level all the paint to a certain thickness. He didn't specify how it was gonna end up like that at all, which also made me :confused: He vaguely implied that his skill as a detailer simply left things in that condition.



Hey, this is my only real negative towards PD, and if I somehow *did* misunderstand, or, even if he simply wants to say "not true", then I'll say "huh...must've been my mistake". I'll even apologize for my (apparent) error and I'll go back and edit that prior post with the appropriate correction. I would like nothing better than for him to come right on this thread and respond to this.



I have no axe to grind with PD and I for one think it's cool that he's able to be as successful as he is, advertising hyperbole and all.
 
If you want to call a difference of opinion, "bickering" then go ahead. But I think that's a little harsh. This is the whole point of a discussion forum isn't it?



And Apollo - you can't use words like "scheme", and say things like "man-made, not hand-made" without sounding derogatory. You've alluded that you know the REAL story behind Paul's success, and the REAL story behind his wax. Anyone reading that would think that you have knowledge of some kind of deception, dishonesty, or wrongdoing on PD's part. That's the kind of thing you have to either back-up, or just not say.



Jake - You said "I could easily have a 100 step detail... But I don't.. why? Because it's stupid and no one in my market gives a rats butt about how many steps it takes to get the results they want"



How can you say that? One of Paul's major selling points is his 61-step process. It's a simple way to make people feel that they are getting thorough service. Automotive chain shops like Midas advertise their x# point inspection that they do along with every oil-change. Used car dealers always mention their x# inspection that they do when they label "Certified" used cars. It's a common practice, and it works. If "no one in the market gives a rats butt", then why do so many businesses do it? Take a marketing class and learn something. Don't just project you're own ideas and opinions onto the entire population.



And if anyone takes issue with anything I've said, or stances I've taken, then you don't have to read it. I haven't said anything derogatory, threatening, or insulting to anyone. If you disagree, then feel free to report me to the mods.



Business and economics is something I feel I'm very knowledgeable about. And detailing is a prominent hobby in my life. It's only natural that I gravitated towards discussions that encompass both. I think that a free market economy is the ultimate judge of right and wrong. And when a business is successful (obviously without being dishonest), I view that as a tremendous achievement and the ONLY reliable measure against one's peers.



So when Paul's business is has more notoriety, more volume, and more profits than yours, it's simply because he's BETTER than you are. So I take issue when Apollo says "i know detailers that are MUCH better than Paul". Because it simply cannot be true. While you might be better at this, or that, when it comes to running a detailing business (which is DIFFERENT than just detailing), few, if any have done it better than Mr. Dalton.



The same thing goes for Zymol, Best Buy, Geek Squad, or any of the other passionate discussions I've engaged in on this forum. Those companies do it bigger and better than anyone else. You can say it's all marketing, or hype, or whatever. But to me, that's just crybaby jealousy.



It's the same thing with the local hardware store owner who gets run out of business becuase a Wal-mart opened across the street. To him I say, "Sorry buddy, Wal-Mart figured out how to do things bigger and better than you can. The world doesn't owe you a living. So either compete, or go home".



Bottom line, the word "HYPE" means 'contrived publicity', 'deception', 'artificial'. If you didn't know that, and didn't mean to say those things, then you stand corrected. But if you insist on using that word, then you had better be able to back-up what you say. Because those are some pretty bold claims to be making about someone who has done nothing but run an awesome business.



And this is my favorite:



Apollo made several allusions toward the idea that PD has some dirty secret that helped him become a success. But when pressed about what that is, he said - "I shan't disclose that information because it's really not relevant and it's privileged information to those of us who understand and "live" the business."



First of all, it is VERY relevant. Second of all, YOU brought it up. And third, why is it 'priveleged'. Are you bound by an NDA? Only someone who details cars for a living can know about it? Is there some secret guild of detailing monks who will wetsand your balls if you tell anyone their secrets? Either back-up what you say, or keep your mouth shut.
 
Listen smart a$$... First of all, by telling me to "keep my mouth shut" you've just crossed the line. Second, the "secrets" (though not really "secrets") I know about how he got to where he is are things that I choose not to make public, just as the others who know about it haven't made it public... it's called respect. Actually, you're the only one who's contorted my statement into something bigger than it really is and you're also the only little gossiper that would just love to have something new and dirty to tell the other girls. Anyway, by not saying what I actually know just drives the simple-minded up the wall...



By the way, DO NOT respond to or even bother looking at any posts that I have or will make... I need your opinions like I need a hemorrhoid flare up after Mexican food...





Removed by Mods
 
If you choose to keep it private, then you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. YOU made this an issue, not me.
 
Less said:
If you choose to keep it private, then you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. YOU made this an issue, not me.
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Uh, have you noticed that YOU are the ONLY one making a big deal of it?



:banned:



Did I forget to say >>



:banned:?



Dude, you should hang out on some other forum because seriously, you don't belong here. Furthermore, if you haven't noticed by some of the other comments made about you, nobody gives a sh1t about your opinion. Go play somewhere else... you're not wanted here.
 
umm time to calm down maybe???



And to point in case it... The 61 step to make be beleive they are getting a more thurough detail is exactly the definition of "Hype" He purposly trying to get people to beleive the illusion that 61 steps is better than "normal" detailing... When we all know full well it's nothing more than fancy wording.
 
Ok guys....this thread needs to chill out. If I see more accusations and attacks on other members there will be consequences.



Consider it a warning...:rules:
 
Jake - does Paul actually DO all 61 steps? If so, then it's FINE to use that as a selling point. It's not "hype" if it's true. Promotion and presentation are extremely effective sales tools. You can't fault the guy for using them.



By defining what he does, and taking the uncertainty out of the equation, he is creating peace of mind for the customer. Demonstrating in clear wording what sets him apart from the competition is called 'salesmanship'. There is nothing wrong with it.



By being as successful as he is, Paul has proven that detailing business is more than "shiny car = happy customer". This forum is full of stories from pro detailers where customers become irate because they expected a higher level of service than they thought they paid for. I'll bet anything that Paul has much fewer of those stories because he clearly defines the service he provides. It creates security, peace of mind, and certainty for the customer. None of which are artificial, contrived, or deceitful. It's NOT, as you say, and 'illusion'.



As I said, it's good salesmanship, and TONS of businesses use the same tactic. Paul didn't invent it, but he has executed it better than almost any other detailer out there.
 
I don't see where it says that they are showing a 61-step wash. I thought he only mentioned it's one of his available packages.



I will say that if he's got people that feel they can tell a difference and are willing to pay the money then he'd be a moron not to offer the service.
 
Accumulator said:
The only think I ever took issue with was his contention that paint has to be uniform to the point of x-microns to look good, and IME that's just not even remotely realistic, at least not on a vehicle that gets used in the real world or has factory-quality paint (yeah, I mean high-end factory quality as opposed to a five-figure custom job). Correct one RIDS and you're way past the uniformity he claims is essential anyhow.
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Exactly. It would take extremely accurate robotics to polish paint down to that level of uniformity. Well, robotics or *me*, but I'm busy right now... ;)



Jakerooni said:
I don;t think anyone is saying it's all hype. You can't possibly get all that hype if your not good. The hype is in his marketing. Calling every little thing he does a different step. So in the end it's a "61 step process" blah blah.. When in reality I wouldn't call it anything more than a advanced 3 step. No one is doubting Pauls skill. His results speak for themselves bar none. It's how he presents them on camera that is all the hype. Making things sound entirely more difficult than they really are. Saying that after a thorough wash and inspection that the car is "Filthy" still... This is all hype.. It's said for one purpose and one purpose only. To hype his business and his namesake. That is excellent PR. and it works great for him. No one is doubt his skill but I don't see Paul being more skillfull than a lot of other pro detailers out there. But hype is hype and Paul is the master of it.
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I had just cracked my knuckles, ready to pound out a huge reply to this thread when I read Jake's post, and realized he'd already said it. Kinda disappointing, really, I haven't ranted in a while.



Make no mistake about it though, gents.... marketing, hype, smoke, mirrors, two bucket method, whatever you want to call it, Paul Dalton *is* a damn fine detailer and a very successful business man.



OT... I don't know how Scottwax does it... less than 24 hours in Dallas so far, and I already miss the dry desert air. I don't know if I should *breathe* the air here, or *swim* in it. Earlier this morning, it was raining so hard I thought I'd drown if I went out the hotel front door. Doorman called it a "quick sprinkle". pffft.



I understand Hungary is nice this time of year.... :)
 
OT... I don't know how Scottwax does it... less than 24 hours in Dallas so far, and I already miss the dry desert air
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I hear ya SB. I fly in from Dallas last night and was there all week. As soon as I was outside I was like "How does Scott do it in this heat". Then I got back to the soupy heat back here in Philly...YUCK
 
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