beginner unsuccess: hazy(?) SS paint

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xinkid

New member
Hi guys, so I started to use my PC to try to do an autopian polish for my 1993 Toyota MR2 for the first time yesterday. The car has been very well maintained but the paint does have swirl marks from the dealer and some fading because I guess it's never been polished, just washed and waxed.



I taped off one headlight cover and started using #80 on a Edge white pad (their softest) on speed 5. After I worked it until it was almost gone, wiped off the polish, and was surprised that my reflection became more blurred. Is this what you call hazy paint? Compared side by side to the hood, the refletion was definitely not was clear as it used to be. I tried other products that I had in my garage - ColorX and SSR1 with the white and the blue Edge pads. It seemed like ColorX improved the clarity of the reflection, so did the SSR1 but compared side by side to the hood, it was still blurry. :(



So after I took the tape off, I noticed that the section where I polished definitely was more red than the parts that were taped off. But the not-as-red parts had a clearer reflection than the polished redder part. I am so confused and frustrated. I also saw that the headlight cover had thousands of tiny litle scratches. I don't know if my paint is that soft, or that I just don't have the techniques down. I have used the PC to take out oxidation before on two other cars, but I've never tried to bring out the clarity and depth because I've never been able to figure out how. :sadpace:



So, do you have any advice or is anyone who lives close to Austin, TX is willing to show me the ropes?
 
from what i have read so far. i'm not sure about this, but i'm trying to give you a response.



but #80 is more agressive than #83 i believe when used w/ a PC. that means your haziness is not caused by your technique. it coudl be if you used too much polish, didn't work it in enough, or was moving it too fast.



i woudl suggest you follow what you did w/ #82 as i have read on the board. i guess #82 has less agressive properties than the #80 when used w/ a PC





anyone? correct me if i'm wrong.
 
#83 is more aggressive than #80. The 80 series of polishes have a number rating right on the bottle.



Also, it's not clear to me whether the finish got better or worse due to the polishing, only that the hood looks clearer. If the paint on the headlight cover was trashed to begin with, it may be better than when you started but still not as good as the hood.
 
smprince1 said:
Also, it's not clear to me whether the finish got better or worse due to the polishing, only that the hood looks clearer. If the paint on the headlight cover was trashed to begin with, it may be better than when you started but still not as good as the hood.
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yeah, that's one mistake I made I guess. I should have done half of the headlight cover. I was thinking about doing a test section of the hood for a better comparison to see exactly the effect of my polishing but I was already afraid to haze up even more of the car. :o



I thought of this experiment procedure for a test section of a pretty flat part of the hood in order to see the effect. I'm getting brave because there must be a way to fix it!



1. #80 with Edge blue pad speed 5 no pressure on PC moving slowly until it disappears.

2. if it gets hazy, then tape off half of the test section and use SSR1 on half with Edge blue pad speed 5 no pressure until dry.



Does that sound like it will reveal anything to me?
 
xinkid- Well, it'll at least show how the pain responds to the SSR1 as compared with the #80. But a) I dunno if I'd use the #80 again as you seem to have determined that it's not doing what you want and b) I wouldn't work #80 until it disappears, only until it clears out/goes transparent- working it too long can cause micromarring just as not working it long enough can.



The initial cut of #80 is milder than #83 no matter how you apply them.



I've had paint that was too soft for the initial cut of #80 (yeah yeah folks, I *know* it's pretty mild stuff but that's what happened, it's happened to Mike Phillips too). It's hard to say, but what you're experiencing sounds like the same thing. In those cases you can sometimes still use the #80 for major correction but you gotta follow up with something milder. Sometimes the marring from that initial cut is too severe for a really mild follow-up to fix, and it can be a headache.



I'd probably try to use your mildest polish on the area where you already used the #80. Don't work the polish dry and expect to use it more than once before you clear up the problem.
 
Thank you for the good advice! I didn't know which was the mildest polish so I started using SSR1 on Edge white pad at speed 5, couple times. I think it did improve things a little. Then I tried ColorX(as a polish) on the same pad and got brave to go to speed 6. I think that also improved the tiny scratches. Then I remembered that I still have MPPC, which I got for the purpose of "maintenance polish", so I used that a few times on the area as well.



I did all that to half of the headlight cover in order to compare. I don't know when the fine scratches actually started to almost disappear but at the end, the side where I worked on is definitely more clear when I shined a portable light on it. But, I think it took me so many applications to get there that I don't really have a repeatable process. :doh When I started to work the other side with MPPC, even after a few applications, the fine scratches were only slightly improved. So maybe it was the ColorX that did the job. I don't really like the way the MPPC is really liquidy and likes to collect in the cracks, anyway.



One difficulty I faced which I think hindered my ability to assess and come up with a process was that it was very hard to determine clarity. My camera was stolen last month or I would have used the flash to do that test. The garage was lit by a 300W lamp. I tried to look at my own reflection but it was very hard to see the difference. Only when I held a 60W bulb very close to the paint that I can see that most of the fine scratches were gone.



Another thing I don't understand about the reflections is when I looked onto the hood of my wife's 2006 metallic dark blue Sentra, I can see myself so much better. Is it simply because it is a darker color or is it because it has clear coat and that the paint is much smoother? I don't understand why I don't see myself nearly as clearly in the red headlight cover even though the 60W light-bulb test shows little to no fine scratches. :help:
 
Yeah, the b/c paint will generally be more reflective, so it's an apples/oranges kind of thing to compare it with the ss. The ss will give a different look, often with more depth, but it just won't be as clear/reflective as b/c. FWIW I like ss better on many cars, no way would I repaint my ss cars with b/c (or vice-versa either).



I was thinking about this thread last night and IMO the reason the #80 area looked redder/richer was probably from the "trade secret oils" that it leaves behind. Those can be *really* good on ss and can help give that super depth and richness. IMO it's just not the right product for this job. Finding what *is* the right product for a certain paint can be a pain, even when you have a zillion products on the shelf.



For readily-available/OTC products, in this case I think I'd try Meg's #9. It does a *tiny* bit of correcting, very mild stuff (which might be what you need); it does a lot of filling, which might not be the worst thing in the world in this case. You could add a Meg's "pure polish" (#3/#5 (my fave)/#7/#81/Deep Crystal #2) before you wax but I dunno if you'll need it after #9. I'd stick with waxes on the ss, not sealants...just seems to work out better for me and many others.



On inspecting, I too use an incadescent light for a lot of my inspection. Used in an otherwise dark shop it really works well for me. As you've found, you gotta get the illumination and viewing angles just right and that can be a pain. But consider that if you have to try *that* hard to see the flaws they're not gonna show up very readily in normal life. I'd caution you against falling into the "nothing but perfection is acceptable" mindset that this site can engender ;)
 
wow, thanks for explaning the ss vs b/c reflections to me. That's the single most confusing thing that I have ever seen because that Sentra clearly has a ton of swirls in the sun but the reflections are so much clearer! Is it true that ss red needs brighter lighting to see the reflections better? Maybe the clearcoat can reflect better in dark conditions but ss cannot?



Also, I hear you on not polishing endlessly to get to a perfect finish. I actually wanted to use #80 because of its concealing abilities. Now that you mention the milder #9 with even more concealing ability, it does seem like a good choice for me because I'm lazy, and I don't like to have to go over the whole car 6 times just to get rid of tiny scratches. Also because, the paint is already 13 years old and I'd rather keep its thickness and conceal the imperfections.



I'm going to get some #9 after work and try to do half the hood tonight. I'm going to snap some pics with my camera phone and a very very bright flashlight for some before and after shots.
 
xinkid said:
wow, thanks for explaning the ss vs b/c reflections to me. Is it true that ss red needs brighter lighting to see the reflections better? Maybe the clearcoat can reflect better in dark conditions but ss cannot?
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No matter what you often just won't get the same reflections with the ss and yeah, the b/c will really reflect better in dark conditions.



Also, I hear you on not polishing endlessly to get to a perfect finish. I actually wanted to use #80 because of its concealing abilities. Now that you mention the milder #9 with even more concealing ability, it does seem like a good choice for me ..the paint is already 13 years old and I'd rather keep its thickness and conceal the imperfections..
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The #9 is a lot milder than the #80 too, so there oughta be less chance of getting all those little scratches that I suspect were caused by the #80.



Smart move, not overpolishing...I want my cars to stay as original as possible too, which means the older ones ('84 and '85) don't get much correction these days. Imperfect? Yeah, sure, but they're not repainted either ;)
 
okay I bought #9 and tried it on a part of the hood last night while taping off the other part.

Initially I made things worse, again :( I think it's because I experimented using the Edge blue pad (second softest) instead of what I used the night before - Edge white pad (their softest).



So with #9 on Edge blue pad, speed 5, no pressure, until transparent x2, the paint became redder, slight oxidation was removed, but there appeared more scratches than the other side of the tape. I was diappointed because I thought #9 was supposed to have a lot of fillers and fill in all those tiny ones.



Then I tried #9 on Edge white pad, speed 6, no pressure, until transparent x3, the scratches definitely improved, but I got dusting and I still didn't feel like the #9 was filling in the scratches. I was quite confused then..



Then I tried the same thing as above, except on speed 4, until transparent x1. This time I concentrated on a 4x12 area and was able to work the product much longer than before. I guess it's because of the lower speed, and I actually felt that there was some filling action because I saw the most improvement after this one pass.



I have a few questions:



When compared to the headlight cover, the hood looks slightly less red. Does that mean if I want to remove some oxidation, I should MPPC first because #9 is so mild in cleaning ability?



How long am I supposed to be able to work #9? It feels like when I used speed 6, the product quickly disappeared and I felt like it was being "evaporated" by the high speed. What speed should I work #9 with and should it become just transparent or really disappear? I'm not sure if the technique affects its filling ability but it seemed to me it did.



My hypothesis was that the Edge blue pad is too hard for my paint, which seemed to be corrected after I switched to the white pad. But, could it be that scratches were always there, but they just aren't obviously visible until after the light oxidation is removed? I guess I won't know until I try I use #9 on the white pad on the untouched side of the hood?
 
xinkid said:
okay I bought #9 and tried it on a part of the hood last night while taping off the other part....I have a few questions:



When compared to the headlight cover, the hood looks slightly less red. Does that mean if I want to remove some oxidation, I should MPPC first because #9 is so mild in cleaning ability?
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Probably..I'm not (first-hand) familiar with MPPC though...



how long am I supposed to be able to work #9? It feels like when I used speed 6, the product quickly disappeared and I felt like it was being "evaporated" by the high speed. What speed should I work #9 with and should it become just transparent or really disappear? I'm not sure if the technique affects its filling ability but it seemed to me it did.
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I'd work it at 4-5 depending on what seems to work best in your particular situation. Don't work it dry, stop while it's still a little wet. That's the way Meg's polishes/etc. work and yeah, it can be a pain to find that sweet spot in between not enough and too much. Transparent is good, dry isn't so don't let it disappear.



My hypothesis was that the Edge blue pad is too hard for my paint, which seemed to be corrected after I switched to the white pad. But, could it be that scratches were always there, but they just aren't obviously visible until after the light oxidation is removed? I guess I won't know until I try I use #9 on the white pad on the untouched side of the hood?
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You could be right about the pad...I just can't say what's really going on, one of those things where you gotta be there doing the work and anything I'd say would just be guesswork. I don't want to give you worthless advice and I'm feeling out of my depth trying to do this long-distance/online.



The last thing I'd want to do is buy a zillion products, but this sounds like the #9 isn't quite right either :nixweiss



If you ever post on the Meguiar's Online forums, perhaps Mike Phillips could help you out. He's the go-to guy when it comes to their products and he'd be a lot better source of info about them than I am.



Just FWIW, if it were mine I'd use a paint cleaner like Pinnacle PCL or maybe AIO and then a mild polish, probably something like Wax Polish Soft or Metallic Polish, both from 1Z. But I'd ask Mike before you give up on the Meguiar's stuff. Warning: he'll say to use Meg's pads ;)
 
sounds to me you are hitting on 2 cylinders. just to clarify my experience, i have not used the PC or it's buff pads, I use high speed, but you might want to change gears to a different type of pad. normally to richen the shine of paint the wool pad turns better results then the foam pad. the foam pads are more designed for finishing. if you use these types of paint to "turn" paint around it can give off the hazy look and dull like finish. you want a pad that will heat up the surface and cut more and that is what the wool pad is for. so if the pad you are using is foam change to wool. if the pad is wool, then it's a whole different problem.



noticed you were rating the pads in accordance to their softness. you actually want to go the other way around, a strong cut pad.



you can finish with the foam or orbital after you use the wool pad.
 
Accumulator - thanks for all your advice. They did help a lot! I think you're right that at this point, I think I need someone to be here doing the work to help me choose the right product and technique. I think will need to use MPPC (in place of AIO) for cleaning the oxidation, that's for sure. That step I can do since it didn't leave any marring and managed to take some out the night before. No I'm not giving up on Meguiar's products. I really want the oils to fill and shine.



autoprecise1 - if you read my previous posts in this thread, you'll see that my paint is very soft and can't take a wool pad's beating.
 
hard/soft paint, i use wool all the time, finish comes out right regardless. it's all about skill and technique. outherwise, you'll find yourself working longer and harder, but if that's what you want to do go for it. (i've been doing this for a couple of days).



by the way we have a black 92 toyota mr2 with black convertible top with brown interior, in the shop right now. i know what kind of paint you have.
 
Update on the status of the Toyota SS red: I finally got referred to a good detailer. He had a keen eye for spotting scratches and a good feel for how much product to use.



First we tried Edge orange light cutting pad and #9. It was too mild to touch the scratches but the color definitely improved. He said how it only had an abrassive level of 3, he said for the kind of scratches I had, I needed something in level 5 or 6.



Next I mentioned I have SSR2.5. We gave that a go on the Edge orange pad and that improved the scratches significantly. He showed me how to use a little spritz of water to help the pad to release more product. It was a real nice because I felt the water reduced the dusting significantly and increased the work time.



So autoprecise1 was right. It turned out that what I was using was too mild.. and.. I will never be able to explain the blurriness that I saw with the #80 and the blue pad. But, both my wife and I saw it. interestingly, the SSR2.5 leaves the finish very clear and glossy. I think I will try the #9 again after SSR2.5 to see if the blurriness will come back. LOL..



My theory is that the oxidation hid the scratches somewhat on the unpolished side, and the werkstatt prime sealant increased the reflectivity to give a false sense of clarity in the reflection. Once #80 was used, the sealant was taken away, along with some oxidation - making scratches more obvious. That's why when compared to the side with the sealant still on, the reflections looked worse.



I'll post some pics once my friend sends them to me. (I borrowed his camera).
 
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