[Beginner] How much cutting it too much?

[AdamB]

Hello all!

The question at the top of my mind is, "How much cutting is too much?".

I assume I want to do the least amount possible while getting the desired results. However -- after having done a few passes -- there are still some (what I would call) mid-level scratches (I don`t believe they`re into the paint). Here`s some background. . .

I`m a novice; this is my first paint correction. I`m working on a black 2017 Explorer with ~100,000 miles. It`s a daily driver that appears to not ever have been paint corrected or even waxed. Tons of the spider webbing with some deeper scratches. I`d describe the number of deeper scratches as (1) not down into the paint layer and (2) too many to correct individually via wet sanding, etc. The prep was a good wash with foam cannon, iron decontamination, a second, quick wash and then clayed it.

For my experience level and type of vehicle, perfection is not the end goal for me; 85% - 90% would be great!

I`m using the Torq X DA polisher with the Chemical Guys V-Line of polishes. For those unfamiliar, there are four polishes V32, V34, V36 and V38. V32 is the most aggressive and V38 is the final polish. The first thing I did was use an orange Hex Logic foam pad with V36 on one section of the hood. It made an obvious difference, but was nowhere near the desired result. So, I hit it again with that same combo which led to, perhaps, a minor improvement, but didn`t seem to be getting the deeper scratches. So, I moved to V32 with the orange pad with only a minor improvement. I then moved to a Meguiar`s MF cutting pad with V34. There was an improvement, but I still feel I`m not reaching the 85%-90% goal (probably getting something like 70%).

At this point, I started wondering if I`m being too aggressive or making too many passes. What do you think? Should I quit cutting and get to the final polish and sealant? Or, am I worrying too much and need to proceed with caution to reach my goal? I once saw a video where an experienced detailer cut the paint on a 2 by 2 section of a hood repeatedly until he finally got through the clear coat (if memory serves, it was about 50 or 60 passes).

I appreciate any thoughts or guidance you have!

One final note, I spent quite a bit of time trying to get some quality images and/or video to attach, but failed miserably. The pics I took are a horrible representation of what I see in reality. I`ll continue to try, but I don`t have any images to share at the moment.

Thanks!

 

[dgage]

It is always a balance with enough correction and too aggressive. The first thing we’ll tell you is the clearcoat is THIN!! and is constantly being attacked by the environment. But on the flip side of that, when polishing with mild abrasives (not too aggressive pads/polishes), you’d have to really go crazy to go through the clearcoat on a later model car WHEN USING THE POLISHER PROPERLY. But really the only way to know for sure is with a paint thickness gauge which start at around $200 and go into the thousands. Also, it really only takes one accidental use of the polisher to run through the paint in a small area or on a body line but if you’re careful your DA polisher is pretty safe when used cautiously.

With all of that said, it should (should?!?!) be safe to continue with a microfiber cutting pad and a good polishing compound to try to get most of the not too deep scratches out. When I’m trying to get out marks like you describe, I’m usually using a Rupes blue coarse wool pad and a fairly aggressive compound and the pad is is a little more aggressive than the Meguiars MF cutting pad. The MF cutting pad doesn’t finish down well so you’ll definitely need to do another pass with a polishing pad and polish. Good luck.

And pictures would be beneficial for us to see but also to show off your work. I’d recommend getting 3M fine car tape (or the yellow green sensitive surface tape) and tape a line down the center of a panel. Correct one side and then when you’ve done your correction steps, peel the tape. The before and after is usually jaw dropping with paint you describe. This will sell your capabilities to the owner and any future customers or just friends/family. Don’t use regular masking tape or even blue masking tape as I have seen bad paint come up with the tape. Warm up the tape and peel it back at a pretty steep low angle.

 

[PoisonTheWell]

Is this your car or someone else’s that your working on?

Consider moving on From the chemical guys polishes if you’re going to continue with more cars. It made learning a nightmare for me. I also bought a relatively inexpensive but well-reviewed paint thickness gauge for $70.

 

[AdamB]

It is always a balance with enough correction and too aggressive. The first thing we’ll tell you is the clearcoat is THIN!! and is constantly being attacked by the environment. But on the flip side of that, when polishing with mild abrasives (not too aggressive pads/polishes), you’d have to really go crazy to go through the clearcoat on a later model car WHEN USING THE POLISHER PROPERLY. But really the only way to know for sure is with a paint thickness gauge which start at around $200 and go into the thousands. Also, it really only takes one accidental use of the polisher to run through the paint in a small area or on a body line but if you’re careful your DA polisher is pretty safe when used cautiously.

With all of that said, it should (should?!?!) be safe to continue with a microfiber cutting pad and a good polishing compound to try to get most of the not too deep scratches out. When I’m trying to get out marks like you describe, I’m usually using a Rupes blue coarse wool pad and a fairly aggressive compound and the pad is is a little more aggressive than the Meguiars MF cutting pad. The MF cutting pad doesn’t finish down well so you’ll definitely need to do another pass with a polishing pad and polish. Good luck.

And pictures would be beneficial for us to see but also to show off your work. I’d recommend getting 3M fine car tape (or the yellow green sensitive surface tape) and tape a line down the center of a panel. Correct one side and then when you’ve done your correction steps, peel the tape. The before and after is usually jaw dropping with paint you describe. This will sell your capabilities to the owner and any future customers or just friends/family. Don’t use regular masking tape or even blue masking tape as I have seen bad paint come up with the tape. Warm up the tape and peel it back at a pretty steep low angle.

Thanks, dgage! I appreciate the information. It`s reassuring to hear it`s probably safe to continue. I feel pretty confident I`m using the polisher correctly as I watched a *ton* of videos and read many postings on the topic. It`s also my nature to be overly cautious, so I`m likely worrying excessively. I do have finishing pads (both MF and foam), so I`ll finish a section of the hood tomorrow to see how it turns out.

I`ll work on figuring out how to get good pics. I know they are helpful to see for those who are trying to give advice.

Thanks, again!

 

[AdamB]

Is this your car or someone else’s that your working on?

Consider moving on From the chemical guys polishes if you’re going to continue with more cars. It made learning a nightmare for me. I also bought a relatively inexpensive but well-reviewed paint thickness gauge for $70.

Thanks, PTW. It`s my car (I re-read my OP and noticed I didn`t mention it was my car. Don`t know why - I wasn`t trying to be vague). Interesting to hear your experience with CG polishes; I`ll consider it. Do you feel like the gauge you bought is pretty good? If so, will you share the brand?

Thanks!

 

[cvm]

Is this your car or someone else’s that your working on?

Consider moving on From the chemical guys polishes if you’re going to continue with more cars. It made learning a nightmare for me. I also bought a relatively inexpensive but well-reviewed paint thickness gauge for $70.

Sorry to OP for hijack, but please a bit more info on a $70 PTG that is 1/2 way reliable. Thanks

OP keep being conservative and you`ll do ok

 

[AdamB]

As a follow-up: I`m starting to figure even the V32 isn`t aggressive enough for this vehicle. Do you have recommendations for one step more aggressive? I`m reading a lot of good things about M100 and M101, but also sounds like those may be a bit too aggressive for me. Based on reviews, M105 pales in comparison to M100/M101, but also less aggressive (i.e., less risky).


Obviously, I don`t want to make things convoluted (and expensive!) by purchasing too many products. So, I appreciate any point in the right direction. As a reminder, I`m not under any false impression that I can reach 100%, but I`m surprised at the lack of results I`m getting having used the most aggressive compound in this line.


Attached is a pic of what I`m looking at (not a great pic, but gotta start somewhere). It`s not perfect, but a fairly good representation of what I see under the light.

 

[dgage]

I’d recommend Griot’s BOSS Fast Correcting Cream and Perfecting Cream, which you may be able to get locally in the US. There are tons of great polishes though but those are really good and readily available. Meguiars, CarPro, Menzerna, 3D, Sonax, and many others make good compounds and polishes I’ve used but the Griot’s hold their own, are inexpensive, and perform very well.

I’ll also say some off those scratches look pretty deep so don’t go chasing 90% correction, you may have to settle for 70%. Better to stop early and make it look good than go through the clearcoat.

 

[Stokdgs]

AdamB - Welcome to the Forum !

Thank you for providing much background info and the picture.. This really helps us help you better...

I have almost 20 years experience with Meguiars 105, 205 and then later 101, using a Makita 9227 Rotary... The 105 product needs additional moisture, as it wants to dry up quickly, and never finish breaking down... I have successfully used it on many, many, pretty destroyed Autos, and an entire Cessna Airplane..
It works really great, but it needs help for it to finish breaking down to almost nothing, and it leaves a really nice finish for what it is...

If your vehicle came into my shop and I already know that your vehicle`s paint is on the hard side, I measured the Total Thickness, and it was way over 100 microns of Total Thickness, I would have put on a Lake Country Purple Foam Wool Pad, some M105 or 101, and cleared that paint up pretty quickly, and finished with M205, or perhaps Optimum Hyper Polish on a Lake Country White Foam pad.. The result would be very flat, clear, and glossy... But, I do this all the time...

Not seeing how deep the worst scratches are, they may or may not have all come out, but they would have been way, way, diminished...
I would measure all the paintwork first, get the baseline nbr of microns for each section, compound, measure, see if I removed off X nbr of microns, do the math, and decide how many I will risk removing to get the desired correction you wanted to see..

I specialize in all Black Painted vehicles, so this is really not hard for me to get the correction the Client wants to see vs removing too much clearcoat, because I measure after Every Pass...

You will be so much happier to get away from C/Guys paint correction products...There are more efficient products that work faster and leave a nice finish..
Meguiars 105 or 101 may be a pretty big order for a beginner at this, but it is not impossible to learn how to use them.. Again, they need some additional moisture, as you are going, so they do not dry out too quickly, and if you find that balance, they will finish all the way to the end, leaving very little residue and a very nice finish, ready for the next Polish step, and then you are done...

The great recommendations for the Griot`s compounds are spot on.. A lot of Detailers have used both of the compounds very successfully and they also produce beautiful finishes if worked correctly... I would recommend them over Meguiars for those who have no one around to watch you and advise you...

The Ultimate Key to all of the paint correction and polish on any paintwork is always going to be Pad Rotation... The more you get, the better and faster the work will go... This is why I have never stopped using a Rotary, but I also learned on a Rotary when I was a kid, so I see no need for me to ever change...

So in conclusion, consider getting the Griot`s products mentioned previously, they should be sold here at the Autopia Store, and you will be fine...

My most favorite all-around Polish for awhile now has been Optimum Hyper Polish, and it is great... This product does not break down completely and will continue to polish as long as you keep going, so bear that in mind.. I have heard of some people that did not mind that, and eventually ran through the clear coat with it..

There are a lot of other newer products out there, and perhaps they are also great too... I just have no need to go out and try them, because, I do not need them...

Don`t know how many pads of each you have but for a vehicle that size, and Black, I would probably use over a dozen to correct it and perhaps half as many to polish it after... Everyone`s process is different, so you have to be flexible, every vehicle`s paint is different, some soft, some sticky when heated, some medium, some hard as heck... You just have to continue to experiment and find what works for the desired result You want to see...

You will need a good foam pad cleaner... I have had excellent results with Lake Country Snappy Clean Powder, that you just mix in a 5-gallon bucket of water; throw the used pads in there, let them soak while you work, when you are ready, work the pads in the water, take them out, rinse them well, dry them and they will be perfect for the next time you use them... Any dish soap, etc., is probably fine too, but some have junk in them that takes a lot longer to rinse out...
The people who make these excellent foam pads, made this pad cleaner, so why would it not be really good??? Yeah, that`s what I thought...

Glad you watched videos, just remember that there are a lot of good And bad ones out there...

There are a lot of really great, experienced, Detailers on here that also do this for a living...Their expertise and advise is worth a look and a listen...

Dan F

 

[AdamB]

AdamB - Welcome to the Forum !

Thank you for providing much background info and the picture.. This really helps us help you better...

I have almost 20 years experience with Meguiars 105, 205 and then later 101, using a Makita 9227 Rotary... The 105 product needs additional moisture, as it wants to dry up quickly, and never finish breaking down... I have successfully used it on many, many, pretty destroyed Autos, and an entire Cessna Airplane..
It works really great, but it needs help for it to finish breaking down to almost nothing, and it leaves a really nice finish for what it is...

If your vehicle came into my shop and I already know that your vehicle`s paint is on the hard side, I measured the Total Thickness, and it was way over 100 microns of Total Thickness, I would have put on a Lake Country Purple Foam Wool Pad, some M105 or 101, and cleared that paint up pretty quickly, and finished with M205, or perhaps Optimum Hyper Polish on a Lake Country White Foam pad.. The result would be very flat, clear, and glossy... But, I do this all the time...

Not seeing how deep the worst scratches are, they may or may not have all come out, but they would have been way, way, diminished...
I would measure all the paintwork first, get the baseline nbr of microns for each section, compound, measure, see if I removed off X nbr of microns, do the math, and decide how many I will risk removing to get the desired correction you wanted to see..

I specialize in all Black Painted vehicles, so this is really not hard for me to get the correction the Client wants to see vs removing too much clearcoat, because I measure after Every Pass...

You will be so much happier to get away from C/Guys paint correction products...There are more efficient products that work faster and leave a nice finish..
Meguiars 105 or 101 may be a pretty big order for a beginner at this, but it is not impossible to learn how to use them.. Again, they need some additional moisture, as you are going, so they do not dry out too quickly, and if you find that balance, they will finish all the way to the end, leaving very little residue and a very nice finish, ready for the next Polish step, and then you are done...

The great recommendations for the Griot`s compounds are spot on.. A lot of Detailers have used both of the compounds very successfully and they also produce beautiful finishes if worked correctly... I would recommend them over Meguiars for those who have no one around to watch you and advise you...

The Ultimate Key to all of the paint correction and polish on any paintwork is always going to be Pad Rotation... The more you get, the better and faster the work will go... This is why I have never stopped using a Rotary, but I also learned on a Rotary when I was a kid, so I see no need for me to ever change...

So in conclusion, consider getting the Griot`s products mentioned previously, they should be sold here at the Autopia Store, and you will be fine...

My most favorite all-around Polish for awhile now has been Optimum Hyper Polish, and it is great... This product does not break down completely and will continue to polish as long as you keep going, so bear that in mind.. I have heard of some people that did not mind that, and eventually ran through the clear coat with it..

There are a lot of other newer products out there, and perhaps they are also great too... I just have no need to go out and try them, because, I do not need them...

Don`t know how many pads of each you have but for a vehicle that size, and Black, I would probably use over a dozen to correct it and perhaps half as many to polish it after... Everyone`s process is different, so you have to be flexible, every vehicle`s paint is different, some soft, some sticky when heated, some medium, some hard as heck... You just have to continue to experiment and find what works for the desired result You want to see...

You will need a good foam pad cleaner... I have had excellent results with Lake Country Snappy Clean Powder, that you just mix in a 5-gallon bucket of water; throw the used pads in there, let them soak while you work, when you are ready, work the pads in the water, take them out, rinse them well, dry them and they will be perfect for the next time you use them... Any dish soap, etc., is probably fine too, but some have junk in them that takes a lot longer to rinse out...
The people who make these excellent foam pads, made this pad cleaner, so why would it not be really good??? Yeah, that`s what I thought...

Glad you watched videos, just remember that there are a lot of good And bad ones out there...

There are a lot of really great, experienced, Detailers on here that also do this for a living...Their expertise and advise is worth a look and a listen...

Dan F

Thanks so much for the detailed info, Dan!


When you mention keeping a product like M105 moist, do you prefer one way over another? I`ve been using pad conditioner with what I`ve done so far and it`s kept things pretty smooth while I finsh each pass. There`s been no flaking, chattering/skipping or anything like that. Or, is distilled water just as good?


Though I`d love to have one, I get the feeling I can`t justify the cost of a pro-level coating depth gauge. There are a couple on Amazon that are well-reviewed and are $60 or $70. Would you consider those "better than nothing" or "a waste of money"?


I am definitely going to take the recommendation and go with the Griots FCC. I`m looking forward to checking out the results! While I`m not confident enough (yet!) to use a rotary, I do pay attention to pad rotation and have taken a suggestion I read about to mark the backing plate so I can monitor rotation. That`s been really helpful as there`s no way I can tell without it.


I have (at least) 6 each of the cutting MF pads, light cutting foam pads and polishing foam pads. I also have a couple of polishing MF pads. Since it`s my personal vehicle (and I`m going slowly), I have no problem washing pads as needed, so I`m probably okay in that department for now. I`m using a pad cleaner that works pretty well, but will take your suggestion and grab some of the Snappy Clean Powder.


The experience of Autopia forum users is already evident and I appreciate your further endorsement on that line. I will continue to search the forums and ask questions as needed. Perhaps I`ll be in a position to contribute in the future.


Again, I really appreciate all the pointers!


-Adam

 

[PoisonTheWell]

This is where we come to learn! Chemical Guys got me into actually polishing cars and detailing with all their marketing and videos, so I appreciate that. But I`ve since moved on to Sonax polishes and compounds and Lake Country pads. I`ve heard great things about the Griot`s Boss creams as stated above. I also did two of my own cars with Chemical Guys stuff before upgrading and doing a trashed Z3 my mom was given. It was great for learning on because if it couldn`t be fixed, it`d have to be repainted anyway.

Here`s the depth gauge I bought, but it only works on metals. So that may not help with Ford bumpers and non-ferrous body parts. I figured it`s better than going in blind. Amazon.com

 

[Stokdgs]

AdamB -----------------------

There are only 2 things I have ever purchased from the C/Guys people --
1.Pad Conditioner (probably just a quick detailer, I don`t know)
2. Microfiber Wash (Gallon size)

The Pad Conditioner has worked great for years.. I of course, spray it on the pad a little to get it just moist.. Then when using M105 especially, I will spray some on the work, if it starts to dry up, etc., and you learn just how much you need with experience... Keep the working surface just moist enough so it is all working smoothly, and as you keep working it, the compound, etc., will eventually go away to a very thin if any layer, and then you stop, wipe it with a clean microfiber, see what you need to do next.. This product has never failed me, but again, it is probably just a quick detailer under a different name.. Don`t care... Has never harmed or made the work impossible..

The Microfiber Wash is perfect for cleaning all my microfibers... I usually throw in a little bit of Distilled White Vinegar, and I have found that this helps clean the microfiber towels a little better, and enhances their ability to absorb in my experiences... I have a little plastic 90cc cup that I use, and I put that much or sometimes 2 cups, 90cc each in the wash cycle and have never harmed any microfibers..

I can`t remember when microfiber pads first came out; perhaps 10+ years ago or more? Anyway, I tried a few from Optimum and while they appeared to correct fast, I did not like they way they worked for my needs, and have a few stacks of them I will probably never use.. Perhaps improvements have made them better? Don`t know and don`t need to know anyway.. They did require another polish pass with foam, to get the finish like I wanted it to be = flat, clear, glossy, blinds you in the sun, no swirls, etc...

Total Paint Thickness Gauges --- I have an old HighLine Meter II... Used to be able to buy them here, but it looks like everyone has discontinued selling them... I found my meter now, on Amazon - Amazon.com
Can`t remember how much I paid but I believe it was over $200 back then, so this appears to be a good deal...

Please remember that these inexpensive meters only measure, with a little +/- error, the Total Thickness of Everything on that metal panel... Not ever, ever, just the top Clear Coat... I read that some people say to "measure an inside door jamb, write it down, measure the paint on the car, like the hood, etc., and subtract the smaller nbr from the larger number, and that is the number of microns of clearcoat you have"... I will never take that to gospel, thank you...

Only the most expensive, DeFelsko meters might measure the individual layers (sealer layers, primer layer, color layers, clearcoat layers, but I cannot vouch for that because I don`t have one.. Their best meter costs more than $2,000.00 last I checked...

So, what I do with mine, is as I said before, prepare to correct, measure the area/s Im working on.. Paint correct pass... Measure the area again... Did I remove how many microns??? You want to remove as few microns of clearcoat as possible... I will Never take out every, every, tiny, defect for anyone, at the expense of removing more clearcoat than necessary...You cannot just think - Just a respray and it will all be better...If you burn through it into the color coat, then it is pretty much an entire repaint of the entire panel, etc., and hope it color matches because you have the best Painter, the one with the gray hair...

Have never used C/Guys pads, they have a Zillion of Everything!!! Their Booth at SEMA is perhaps hundreds of bottles of product stacked 10+ feet high in a huge booth... It is overwhelming to the eyes... And they keep making up new things every month-year-decade-age-etc., etc., forever... They are masters of Marketing 101....

My pads of choice for awhile now have been the Lake Country Hydro-Tech Cyan and Tangerine, I only use 5" pads for everything except for those huge, long, straight vans, etc., Airplanes, etc., and those I use 6" pads on...

The Cyan Hydro-Tech on my Rotary enables me to just use one pad to paint correct really well, and finish down ever better than a normal cutting pad, etc., can do.. They also are made of a foam that does not absorb liquid easily or quickly, so you can get more life out of it before it is done and you put a new, clean, one on...And they have never hurt anything I have ever used them on... They rock on my Rotary for sure...

If I were you, I would just learn how to use your Random Orbital, get really good at it, and then if you want to try a Rotary, you will have a better chance of mastering it...Rotary is Direct Drive...Real smooth...No jumping and jiggling, etc.. It has its place...

I get perfect, flat, perfectly clear and glossy finishes from it all day long... But I also have a few decades using it... It is a little heavy for some; it will give your upper body a great workout if you do, say 80 vehicles or so a year, in my experience..

Less product is better than too much product when doing anything to paint...You will learn how to tell what is going good or badly...

I always, always, have a stack of white, cotton, clean, towels, next to the other things on the rolling cart, that I use to wipe off the pad, after finishing all those passes, and this helps me get a visual of what is coming off, helps keep the pad cleaner, and maybe absorb a little of the liquid+compound+dead paint,etc., off the foam pad, so I can keep going longer before having to change it out...

You need great lights!! Looks like you have some great LED`s so that is perfect !! Use them a lot... Sometimes on certain colors, the old, hot, halogens seem to work better, like on white, or lighter colors.. The LED`s can sometimes be too bright, but sometimes, just moving them farther away from the work will help diminish that too bright reflection... Experiment...

OK, this is too long, sorry guys for making you crazy..
Dan F

 

[Bull6791]

Dan. Thanks so much for all the detailing info. Your posts are such a pleasure to read. You have been paint correcting and detailing for so many years, everyone can learn something from you.

 

[Accumulator]

Back in the days of much thicker clear, the rule (as per Ford) was to not remove more than approx. two-thirds of a mil. I forget how many microns that worked out to, but it wasn`t many. Taking off more, which *lots* of Detailers do regularly, tended to precipitate premature clearcoat failure due to UV exposure.

It`s *NOT* about "not breaking through the clear! You should never even come close to taking off that much.

OK, True Confession: I`ve taken off a *LOT* more than that on my `93 Audi and after ~14 years its remaining clear is still holding up OK. But I don`t park it in the sun much either, and I`d *NEVER* take that much off any of my other vehicles (that `93 was a horrorshow when I got it, had to do something or get it repainted).

 

[Stokdgs]

Back in the days of much thicker clear, the rule (as per Ford) was to not remove more than approx. two-thirds of a mil. I forget how many microns that worked out to, but it wasn`t many. Taking off more, which *lots* of Detailers do regularly, tended to precipitate premature clearcoat failure due to UV exposure.

It`s *NOT* about "not breaking through the clear! You should never even come close to taking off that much.

OK, True Confession: I`ve taken off a *LOT* more than that on my `93 Audi and after ~14 years its remaining clear is still holding up OK. But I don`t park it in the sun much either, and I`d *NEVER* take that much off any of my other vehicles (that `93 was a horrorshow when I got it, had to do something or get it repainted).

Amigo ! Hope all has been well with you and yours ! It`s been hotter than heck out here in the NorCal Farmlands...
Another week of 100+ temps..
It is like being back in Texas...My people back there have been going through a few weeks of 100+ temps... Thank goodness it is just normal temps from long ago back for a visit...

It is 25.4 microns = 1 mil = 1 thousandth of an inch...

Dan F

 

[Accumulator]

Amigo ! Hope all has been well with you and yours ! It`s been hotter than heck out here in the NorCal Farmlands...
Another week of 100+ temps..

Hey Dan! Man..I never meant to fall so completely out of touch, things`ve been awfully busy here and we`re having a hot year too. Accumulatorette just as it`s nothing compared to growing up in Memphis without AC

It is 25.4 microns = 1 mil = 1 thousandth of an inch...

Thanks! I was gonna guess "26" but just wasn`t sure I was remembering it right. Wonder what the guidelines are now, oe paintjobs are getting so thin!