Automotive Paint Absorbs Water?

C

CharlesW

The Rainmaker
While searching the net for some information tonight, I came upon an article stating that the average vehicle with high solid/low solvent clear coat will absorb over a pint of water in the paint system when washing it.

The statement was made by an individual that has quite a reputation, (At least in his own mind:)), in the paint care industry.

It seems a little hard for me to accept, but I welcome some comments from others.

Charles
 
Sounds a little hard to believe but the clear is somewhat porous, it could hold some water.....any links to the article that you read?
 
They can absorb water. When a clear coat paint finish oxidises enough, it will become increasingly porous and when being rinsed after a wash, absorb alot of water and dry by itself.
Once the paints been polished however, that effect is seriously reduced or eliminated
 
Water is natures solvent and being a solvent it is smaller on a molecular level than the paint film on your car which is why certain solvents like water and kerosene can be absorbed. Kerosene can be used to swell paint which gives it a temporary hiding effect on light marring.

Wax on the other hand is larger than the paint film on a molecular level (paint is highly cross linked) which is why it can't be absorbed nor can it become part of the paint film but rather it lays on top of the paint film.

So yes paint can absorb water and other solvents.

Anthony
 
Since it was my thread, a little hi-jack might be OK. :D

Given that paint is porous and can absorb water/solvents, maybe Meguiar's statements about feeding the paint aren't as far fetched as many people think they are.

Charles
 
I'm not sure what to think. Just some random thoughts...

I believe that paint is porous but on the other hand I don't know if I believe it can absorb that much water. That would make me think if I were to glaze that same car it would take an equal amount of glaze. I've never used up anywhere near a pint of glaze on one car.

So if I run with the fact that it absorbs water. Drying it with a towel wouldn't get all the water our of the paint. So in theory, shouldn't we wait until the paint is completely dry before applying any sealants or glaze. Otherwise you are not able to get the product into the pores of the paint because they are already filled with water. Right?!?!

Hmmm, interesting topic.
 
I find it hard to believe that paint can actually absorb the water BUT I would say an oxidized or unwaxed car sure fights to keep the water because it is a pita to dry such a vehichle. just my 1 1/2 cents
 
PEI Detail said:
I'm watching this one.
Click to expand...

Me to :wall

I'm not a chemist but it seems to me that there would be alot more corrosion in vehicles if what the "genius" that Charles is referring to is correct.

All I can refer to is what I learned in basic chemistry, that water, air, and other materials in the atomsphere cause corrosion, and if that much water is going into the paint (per wash) as that man said, I would be skeptical of his statement whether the car completely drys everytime or not.

It also seems that the oxidation of a paint job would occur much more rapidly if what he says is true. Oxidation is pretty much a natural occurance though when any element starts losing electrons.

Sorry, I really don't know what I'm talking about here so I'll go back to watching.
 
Paint does not need to have its "oils" replenished nor can you "nourish" paint with oils from glazes and products. Reason being is because paint doesn't lose any oils nor does it have any oils that need "feeding" or "replenishing". Companies that claim that do so for marketing because it sounds good. It started back with Zymol then others picked up on it because a glaze would put a lot of color into the enamel single stage paints years back so it "appeared" to replenish oils and such and give the paint new life.

If you polish and old single stage red paint it will look all glossy and deep but no "oils" were replenished but oxidation was removed to reveal healthy pigmented paint.

As I explained earlier, paint is highly cross linked BUT solvents, such as water, are smaller on a molecular level so they can be absorbed into paint to a degree.

Waxes and glazes are much larger on a molecular level and cannot be absorbed into the paint film, thus they lay on top of the paint film.

Anthony

Edit: I'm leaving for the BMW Oktoberfest so I won't be able to add any replies until the weekend
 
I've actually seen with my own eyes paint absorb water.

I had a vinyl bra on my car at the time (yeah I know pretty lame) and the paint became fogged with water. It could not be wiped away nor could it be polished off. I was able to heat the paint with a hair dryer though and could see the water evaporating from the paint.
 
Mikeyc said:
I've actually seen with my own eyes paint absorb water.

I had a vinyl bra on my car at the time (yeah I know pretty lame) and the paint became fogged with water. It could not be wiped away nor could it be polished off. I was able to heat the paint with a hair dryer though and could see the water evaporating from the paint.
Click to expand...

that was condensation due to the bra, moisture and heat, it also happens with magnetic signs ...;)
 
CharlesW said:
Here you go.
Cars

Charles
Click to expand...

Hey Charles, decided to call PPG this morning...and as usual Ketch is telling some tall stories :notme:
According to PPG tech, after 90 days their paint is fully cured and will NOT absorb any liquids.
In case you want to call them 1-800-637-8889 ;)

Of course I can see that a old non-maintained finish that has a lot of scratches and marring will take on the appearance of oxidation and IF a finish did absorb a pint over the entire surface of a vehicle it would be basically one drop per square foot ...:rolleyes: ...

....and if car finishes did absorb water :hmmm: then people who live in Oregon, Washington State, England and other parts of the world that see a lot of rain would have some serious worries :eek:
 
Poorboy said:
Hey Charles, decided to call PPG this morning...and as usual Ketch is telling some tall stories :notme:
According to PPG tech, after 90 days their paint is fully cured and will NOT absorb any liquids.
In case you want to call them 1-800-637-8889 ;)

Of course I can see that a old non-maintained finish that has a lot of scratches and marring will take on the appearance of oxidation and IF a finish did absorb a pint over the entire surface of a vehicle it would be basically one drop per square foot ...:rolleyes: ...

....and if car finishes did absorb water :hmmm: then people who live in Oregon, Washington State, England and other parts of the world that see a lot of rain would have some serious worries :eek:
Click to expand...

Makes much more sense than the original theory.

I made the same call out here today (to a reputable body shop) and got the same answer as you.

Next crisis?? :huh:
 
Mikeyc said:
I've actually seen with my own eyes paint absorb water.

I had a vinyl bra on my car at the time (yeah I know pretty lame) and the paint became fogged with water. It could not be wiped away nor could it be polished off. I was able to heat the paint with a hair dryer though and could see the water evaporating from the paint.
Click to expand...

Poorboy said:
that was condensation due to the bra, moisture and heat, it also happens with magnetic signs ...;)
Click to expand...
The thing that confuses me here is the fact that the moisture couldn't be wiped dry. Even condensation should be something that would wipe dry.
(Unless by some odd chance the moisture really was being absorbed by the paint. :confused:
Poorboy said:
Hey Charles, decided to call PPG this morning...and as usual Ketch is telling some tall stories :notme:
According to PPG tech, after 90 days their paint is fully cured and will NOT absorb any liquids.
In case you want to call them 1-800-637-8889 ;)

Of course I can see that a old non-maintained finish that has a lot of scratches and marring will take on the appearance of oxidation and IF a finish did absorb a pint over the entire surface of a vehicle it would be basically one drop per square foot ...:rolleyes: ...

....and if car finishes did absorb water :hmmm: then people who live in Oregon, Washington State, England and other parts of the world that see a lot of rain would have some serious worries :eek:
Click to expand...
I have read a lot of Ketch's comments over the years and this one seems about as far fetched as any I have read previously, but??????

I certainly can't argue with what the PPG tech's have to say, but what about the stains that some times show up on paint that is definitely old enough to be "fully cured". I have seen stains that seem to be "in" the paint, rather than "on" the paint since they don't polish off. What is the cause of that?

Charles
 
Very interesting thread. I've never heard of paint absorbing water before.

It's been my experience that oxidized paint sure seems to absorb water because it dries much faster than non-oxidized paint. I would tend to believe that paint could absorb water judging by that experience but it's hard to dispute what PPG says.
 
CharlesW said:
The thing that confuses me here is the fact that the moisture couldn't be wiped dry. Even condensation should be something that would wipe dry.
(Unless by some odd chance the moisture really was being absorbed by the paint. :confused:

I have read a lot of Ketch's comments over the years and this one seems about as far fetched as any I have read previously, but??????

I certainly can't argue with what the PPG tech's have to say, but what about the stains that some times show up on paint that is definitely old enough to be "fully cured". I have seen stains that seem to be "in" the paint, rather than "on" the paint since they don't polish off. What is the cause of that?

Charles
Click to expand...

I would believe they are from minerals that are corrosive whether they are in water , chemicals in the air, or coming out of a bird..but will usually be baked in by the sun, not just from being put on the vehicle & then sucked in by the paint. :)
 
Troy@DetailCity said:
Very interesting thread. I've never heard of paint absorbing water before.

It's been my experience that oxidized paint sure seems to absorb water because it dries much faster than non-oxidized paint. I would tend to believe that paint could absorb water judging by that experience but it's hard to dispute what PPG says.
Click to expand...

again i would say there's a big difference between a new finish and an old finish and a well maintained one and a neglected one ...these are variables that need to be accounted for and to just generally say that a finish is absorbing water at the rate of a pint per wash then your car would be getting pretty heavy after a few years:hmmm:
 
Poorboy said:
that was condensation due to the bra, moisture and heat, it also happens with magnetic signs ...;)
Click to expand...

Yes, this was condensation (=water) in the paint. I was not able to wipe it off or affect it in any way by touching it. So, I'm sure it was in the paint. When I applied heat to it with a hair drier it evaporated out like I was defogging a bathroom mirror. This was not fresh paint it was factory paint.
 
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