Are YOU over polishing your paint?

B

Bobby G

New member
HERE'S A NEW CAN OF WORMS!



I have been reading a lot of threads lately that basically start with people asking "what polish should I use?"



I think it's time for a completely different discussion... That being, how do I go to the highest level of perfection and stay there? Or, how do I fix this problem without removing excessive clearcoat that I need for finish depth?



I have the distinct feeling from reading many threads that people are buying step 1-2-3 products and using all of them because that's what you feel is necessary to achieve "the best results". In no way is this the case.



RULE #1 -- do less damage than the damage that already exists.



My experience shows me that 95% of all paint issues can be resolved with a very fine polish, the right tools and the right technique. So, why is it that so many people are willing to reach for a harsh compound as the first step... when it should be the last resort?



RULE # 2 -- Don't remove material you may need some day!



We all talk about gloss, depth and clarity, but are you stopping to think about what you might be doing to each of these final finish characteristics each time you take an abrasive polish to your paint? You might be seeing more gloss, but it's coming at the expense of depth and maybe even finish clarity.



Most professional polishes are designed to be used with a rotary, by an experienced technician. When you use these polishes by hand or DA, you put scratches in your paint finish that will not come out by using the next polish up in the line.



RULE # 3 -- Know for a fact what tasks the products you're using were designed to perform.



Are you using a polish designed to be used on an automotive assembly line by a technician with a 4" spot pad on a pneumatic polisher to remove 2400 grit sanding marks? If so, what are the equivalent pad specs, rotation speed and polish time to remove your 5000 grit equivalent swirl marks?



Are you using a refinishers panel blending compound originally designed to cut and blend fresh paint using a wool pad as a general purpose cutting compound? If so, can your foam cutting pad effectively generate enough heat on your DA to break down the abrasives to prevent paint scouring?



The fact is, very few abrasive polish systems were designed from the ground up to be a DA polishing system. Very few others have bothered to correctly match "general purpose" polishes with polishing pads and proper instructions to create a system.



The floor is open for healthy discussion on this topic.
 
DavidB,



You make many excellent points! I tend to get all caught up in having the "best" most glossy finish I can have and have never thought about actually doing more harm than good. I truly believe (after reading your post) that detailing can reach a point of diminishing returns once we get involved in all these assorted polishes and paint preparation products. Certainly no one would dispute the need to keep an automobile's finish clean of dirt and general debris via weekly or even daily cleaning. But is it really necessary or even smart to polish and wax or just wax more than once every two months?



Often times neighbors will walk past my house while I'm detailing and they'll jokingly say, "You're going to rub the paint right off the car!" I laugh, call them a few choice names under my breath and continue polishing. But maybe they've got a point!
 
BoneDaddy said:
Should you polish reguarly?
Click to expand...



BoneDaddy,



Polishing is a broad term.



Polishing does not need to be "abrasive" to provide benefit to your paint. You can use a good "pre-wax cleaner/polish" product weekly for years and not wearout your paint. The polishing material is too fine. However, these polishes do improve gloss; they simply do not fix damage.
 
Good points, David. I too sometimes think we over-emphasize the whole "marring removal with abrasives" thing. Once you get a car marring-free, it's very difficult to keep it that way, and if you *don't* keep it perfect, what are you going to do, take off *more* clear on a regular basis? Better to have imperfect, but original, paint than to have to repaint. Perhaps the popularity of "unforgiving" LSPs has something to do with this. The older, "heavy" waxes seem to make imperfections less noticeable.



Glad you mentioned the lack of depth that can result from excessive polishing. You really can *see* the way a thin clearcoat lacks depth. My '95 Caprice is a good example of that- you can tell that the previous owner tried a little too hard (IMO) to "polish it up". Now I can either live with how it looks or repaint, but I can't do much more polishing. I don't need a paint thickness gauge to tell me there isn't a normal amount of clear on it.



[INSERT Accumulator's usual lecture about wash-induced marring HERE] If you don't mar it, you don't have to polish it. Our "good" vehicles hardly *ever* need any polishing because I knock myself out making sure nothing happens to their paint. Our not-so-good ones don't *get* all that much polishing; I simply accept imperfection on those vehicles. In most cases, I'd say people oughta settle for imperfection.



As for the abrasive products, I generally find myself using (and recommending) those that can be used by hand/PC/rotary. Nothing that requires any real specialize technique or equipment. You might not get the *best* results without a rotary, but you won't do any real damage either. I sorta cringe about the recommendations to use rotary-only products by hand/PC.



Having said all that, I wonder if my usual polish recommendations and my talk of "marring-free vehicles" are exactly the sort of thing that prompted your post :o
 
I've always thought that it's preferable to get rid of or lessen a scratch by filling it rather than taking actual paint off. That's always the way I've always operated. IMO the more paint on the car, the better. I was taught to start with the least abrasive product and work your way up.



Maybe it's because I'm a wuss when it comes to using a buffer on the paint. I still do it all by hand. But I have to admit I am impressed by the pics I've seen here of cars that are too far gone for a simple hand polish that have cleaned up nicely with a PC or rotary.
 
Accumulator said:
I simply accept imperfection on those vehicles. In most cases, I'd say people oughta settle for imperfection.
Click to expand...



I'm going through this now. I just had my car repainted. The paint looks great, I've got it looking the way I want it to look (minimal swirls/marring and super shiny). For 2 weeks I've been detailing and picking at it. I really need to drive it. It's a driving car, not a show car. I'll be taking it on a 3000 mile trip soon and I'm going to have to get used to the idea that it's going to get scratched, chipped, etc. If I don't get used to this I'll agonize over every imperfection and not enjoy it.



There's got to be a happy medium. You can have a driving car that looks great but isn't perfect. I need to get there again with my car. It's too perfect! :D
 
I posted a question about this exact topic when I came to the forums on one of my early visits. I raised the issue of how much polishing and abrasive use can be done before you are actually just wearing the paint thin. I also read the study that one guy did about abrasives on paint over on the Meguiar's forum. He tried several products on a hood panel, and after each use measured with a paint thickness gauge. It became clear that you REALLY have to get aggressive to remove any significant amount of clear or paint, but nonetheless the points in this thread are good. After time all the less aggressive products effects become cumulative, and may start to do more harm than good.
 
Tasty said:
It became clear that you REALLY have to get aggressive to remove any significant amount of clear or paint...
Click to expand...



True, but many of the polishes being recommended are VERY AGRESSIVE and will quickly remove an excessive amount of paint.



My partner got a 3 inch long scratch in the clearcoat of his new Lexus SC. I used a 4" spot pad to pull most of the scratch out so it would pass the 5' test. He said "...but I can still see a trace of the scratch closeup...". I explained that if I removed more material we risked thinning the clearcoat and creating a patch of paint that no longer matches the rest of the finish.



Sometimes, enough is enough. The skill is knowing how to read the paint and knowing what the final result will be when you use a product.
 
DavidB said:
BoneDaddy,



Polishing is a broad term.



Polishing does not need to be "abrasive" to provide benefit to your paint. You can use a good "pre-wax cleaner/polish" product weekly for years and not wearout your paint. The polishing material is too fine. However, these polishes do improve gloss; they simply do not fix damage.
Click to expand...

Can you recommend a good prewax cleaner/polish?
 
While that test on the Meguiar's board showed what it showed, I remember that at last year's St. Louis g-t-g an Autopian cut through the clear on a Benz using (merely) a PC and #83. We say you'd have to toss the PC at the paint to cause damage, but that's not really true.
 
I'm often reminded of that old saying, "moderation in all things". IF you do ANYTHING to excess you run the risk of obsession and excessive results. My thoughts would be that IF you have a car that is driven and obsessively seek out that SHOW CAR shine, you'll eventually (no idea how long that would take) wear out the paint - so why head in that direction?



The trick is to learn to live with the minor imperfections and reach a happy medium where you take care of the issues that lead to the problem - proper wash, protection, etc. IF you have a problem that needs immediate attention then take care of it, IF you have issues (swirling, etc.) take care of the swirls when it crosses your individual threshold for tolerance - just make sure you set your standard at a point that you're not obsessed.



Most Autopians have autos that are 99%+ "more perfect" than anything else you can find on a daily basis out on the street - learn to live with the 1%.



Thanks for listening....I gotta go - got some minor swirls (you have to look real hard) I need to take care of!
 
David,



You mentioned using the "5' test" on your partner's Lexus. Is the idea that if you stand back 5' and cannot see the scratch, you should not continue any further in its removal?
 
Decreasing the need for numerous surface repair is the primarly reason why "I" use durable protectants. A durable layer of protection protecs may "virgin" and realistically marr-free finish from the damage of using a vehicle and trying to keep clean. I find sealants do the best job at this. I rarely use anything above DACP and the majority of the time a paint cleanser/very mild polish like AIO, 1ZMP and the new Zaino paint cleanser/polish (mild diminishing abrasives) as my go to products. Major corrections are always done with the rotary (faster and products like Menzerna IP tend to work better via this method).



Place a durable protectant on the surface and the use of a rough abrasive regimen will not be frequently needed.
 
TW85 HHI said:
David,



You mentioned using the "5' test" on your partner's Lexus. Is the idea that if you stand back 5' and cannot see the scratch, you should not continue any further in its removal?
Click to expand...



Given the choice of taking the risk of ruining the paint finish and not being able to see the defect from 5'... I'll take the later.
 
Yeah ,especially on a bumper or other soft surface where the paint can heat up quickly :nervous:
 
I have a scratch about 1.5" long on my front bumper that I could get my fingernail into. I was dismayed when I saw it. I applied Scratch X, glaze and then Zainoed it and you can't see unless you know exactly where to look. It's still there but I'm content.



I've actually rubbed scratches/imperfections too hard and damaged the clearcoat or made the situation worse. Even by hand, you have to be careful with the product you use.
 
Always use the rule of mildest abrasives first and move up the abrasive scale until the correction meets your satisfaction level, courage ;) or paint capacity (thickness, age and exposure, vehicle maker, etc).:wavey
 
I always try the "least aggressive approach" to paint problems.



I start with a finish polish and use the least aggressive pad on the PC or rotary.

If the defect still there I may try the same approach if some improvement has been made.

If there was no benefit from the first approach, I then step down to a more aggressive pad and the same polish.

I keep working down the aggressive scale until the defect is gone.



Then I work back up to the final finish before applying the wax or sealant.



Remember you can always live with minor paint defects, but you can't live without clear-coat
 
That is why I firmly believe in using products that are closely mated to work with each other.



It is always best to take your time in evaluating how much of a product to use (even wax).



It is ok to use a mild polish that will have abrasive qualities to the extent that they will perform deep cleaning, as well as evening out paint issues (marks, dullness, stains). The key with any polish is to use a product that is "clearcoat safe."



I would not, however, just polish for the heck of it. You should use a mild polish (my standard is once a year) to clean and maintain a shining finish. Cutting on an immaculate surface IMO will in time wear your paint to the point that it will look shallow no matter how much wax you put on it.



Just evaluate what you are using, and take care in your steps by using clean surfaces and good working tools. Two stage paint surfaces are very durable and forgiving, and if you use moderation in its care, it will be there for you as long as you want it.



Happy waxing.
 
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