Are Waxes & Sealants Even Necessary??

[RaskyR1]

"Is the silicone content in LSP’s, (which is what’s really responsible for this attribute enthusiasts cherish/envy/idolize so much that creates a vehicle to bead and sheet water) add any benefit to the longevity of paint? (i.e. waxing an oxidized finish and 3 weeks later it fades right back but still beads water)"



Not all LSP's contain silicone. Many premium and luxury waxes are all natural. I wouldn't attribute silicone to producing a desirable finish either.



With the waxes I use I can literally feel a measurable layer of protection above the clear. Any bird droppings or insect contaminants would not reach the clear, nor would it have the ability to etch into the clearcoat.

LOL....and which wax is this?

 

[RaskyR1]

All I know is the cars I've seen that haven't ever had wax or sealant on them hardly get water spots, not true for a heavily waxed or sealed car.

I'm sure that has something do do with waxed cars beeding the water vs. none waxed cars where the water seems to just sort of soak into the paint or lay on top.

 

[FirstRate]

I don't know what LSPs you use, but I have to believe that you only *think* that you're feeling something. The thickness of most LSPs is measured in microns, which would be undetectable by the human hand.

So, you can't tell the difference in feel between a panel that has been waxed and one that hasn't?



Who said the unit of measure is anything other than microns? All I implied is that there is a noticeably different feel between waxed/unwaxed panels that is large enough to be measured :think:.

 

[SpoiledMan]

Your reply is rather odd and while the burden of evidence is on you I will attempt to explain why it doesn't.



Wax doesn't cross link, like many polymer sealants do (and paint), therefore it is, in a nutshell, an oily layer resting on the surface. If you add another layer of wax the solvents present in that wax will replace, not build up or layer, the first application.



Solvents are needed to soften up the wax and make it pliable therefore the thinking is that those same solvents will remove the previous wax layer.



Now if you wish to hold to the thinking that they can layer I must then ask how can you possibly measure that? There is no way to do so. It would seem that the science/chemistry of this all would disagree with the possibility of waxes being layered.



Anthony

While I will agree that the additional layer *may* remove *some* of the previous layer I wouldn't be so quick to say that it removes *all* of it. It's not like there is a thorough massaging of the second layer when applied.

 

[TortoiseAWD]

Because the UV added to paint has a half life of 5 years so this would then mean that after 5 years half has broken down. What's remaining in 15 years?

1/(2^(20 / 5) ) = 1/16



Wait, was that rhetorical?



Tort

"It was my understanding that there would be no math."

 

[Dsoto87]

So, you can't tell the difference in feel between a panel that has been waxed and one that hasn't?



Who said the unit of measure is anything other than microns? All I implied is that there is a noticeably different feel between waxed/unwaxed panels that is large enough to be measured :think:.

Not all LSP's contain silicone. Many premium and luxury waxes are all natural. I wouldn't attribute silicone to producing a desirable finish either.



With the waxes I use I can literally feel a measurable layer of protection above the clear.

Zymol user?





Yes there is a difference between a waxed panel and an unwaxed panel. That doesn't mean its a quantifiable difference. If you can measure the distance just by touching it you have a very special talent, probably don't have a need for a PTG.



If anything I believe a wowa sealant has more of an ability to create a "measurable" layer than any wax. I remember reading that more than 95% of wax that is applied is wiped away, whereas a wipeon walk away sealant leaves behind atleast 70% of what is applied.

 

[SpoiledMan]

I don't know about *feeling* an amount that's measurable but there is a difference between the panels that you can feel. The protected panel feels smoother/slicker when wiped with a towel for instance. There is the same discernible difference to the hand.

 

[RaskyR1]

Has anyone actually measured a difference in thickness from layering their wax/sealant with like 10 layers or something?



I love to hear about it and see the data.

 

[tmg19103]

Has anyone actually measured a difference in thickness from layering their wax/sealant with like 10 layers or something?



I love to hear about it and see the data.

I don't know why a wax manufacturer can't do this with the right eqipment. Since we don't read about it, perhaps most waxes don't layer.



I read Ultima measured UPGP applications as 100-300 microns each.

 

[RaskyR1]

I don't know why a wax manufacturer can't do this with the right eqipment. Since we don't read about it, perhaps most waxes don't layer.



I read Ultima measured UPGP applications as 100-300 microns each.

That's kinda what I was getting at.



At some point you're simply removing the previous layer. I'd like to think we can keep adding additional coats for more protection, but at this point I have yet to see evidence of it.



Any idea where you read about the UPGP?

 

[Scottwax]

just throwing out there, optimum has come out with a new sealent that adds 75 microns and has a supposid 3 year dourability while still holding the gloss/ bead/ wetness factor that we all envy :nixweiss

2 microns, not 75. Someone testing it in Canada I believe is the one who made the measurements.



I've had it on my car since January and have only been washing it conventionally so the polymers in ONR don't skew the results. The paint still looks freshly waxed, have had zero bird bomb damage (even letting them sit on my car for a week at a time) and when spraying the paint with a pressure washer, the water flies off the paint.



I believe the hold-up is the guarantee and making sure it passes the lawyer test. :nixweiss



Getting back to David's questions...



I think if you live in an area with acid rain, industrial fallout, etc you'd be nuts not to have a wax or sealant acting as an additional barrier to protect the paint. Clearcoats are still paint and will benefit from additional protection.

 

[wfedwar]

I don't know why a wax manufacturer can't do this with the right eqipment. Since we don't read about it, perhaps most waxes don't layer.



I read Ultima measured UPGP applications as 100-300 microns each.

No, that can't be right. That's thicker than most clearcoats in a single layer. It would probably start flaking off in chunks if it was really that thick.

 

[tmg19103]

No, that can't be right. That's thicker than most clearcoats in a single layer. It would probably start flaking off in chunks if it was really that thick.

Maybe it was 1-3 microns. This says 100-500 nm - whatever that is. The graphic shows it layering and I have read elsewhere it does but presently can't find it on a search, but will look more later when I have time.



Nanotechnology in Car Care Products - ClassicCars.com

 

[wfedwar]

100-500 nm = 0.1-0.5 microns

That sounds more reasonable.

 

[GoudyL]

Are waxes or sealants even necessary with today’s modern clearcoats? If so, how?

Not essential, but helpful.

Are they adding longevity to its composition? Hence feeding, coating, sealing.

Any "feeding" effect is due to marketing puffery, and visual effect of mineral/silicone oils seeping into the paint.

Are they eliminating UV rays from fading the basecoat?

You are assuming the basecoat is subject to photobleaching. In an old style single stage paint, the pigment was entrapped inside the continious phase of the paint matrix. The paint matrix could oxidise, thus becoming opaque, and obscuring the particles of pigment.



In a clearcoat, the pigment is under a layer of clear resin, which can suffer from UV-mediated polymer scission, causing it to break down, etc.



LSP's will contain UV absorbing ingredients that provide some measure of protection while they last (till they get photobleached themselves).

Are they eliminating acids from rain, birds and insects from etching into the clearcoat?

Yes, because any water soluble corrosive elements, must first pass/diffuse through a hydrophobic layer of wax/polymers/amino-silicones to reach the surface.



IMHO you are ignoring the effect of the unprotected clearcoat, being weakened by enviromental damage, and thus being more susceptible to further erosion when being polished.



No-touch, No-harm.

Do they create a sacrificial barrier that eliminates surface marring due to slickness?

To the extent, that surface dirt does not bond to paint, and instead slides off of it, yes.

Even though initial slickness falls off almost initially after the 1st few washes, does that mean this so-called protective characteristic has diminished too?

Some of the protective characteristics have diminshed, but others have not.

Is beading indicative of protection? If so at what capacity?

Hard to say. However I think it would be difficult to make a durable hydrophilic polish, since the film would become cloudy from attracted water and want to disolve in water.

Is the silicone content in LSP’s, (which is what’s really responsible for this attribute enthusiasts cherish/envy/idolize so much that creates a vehicle to bead and sheet water) add any benefit to the longevity of paint? (i.e. waxing an oxidized finish and 3 weeks later it fades right back but still beads water)

Yes, the water beading means the water is not touching the surface of the paint.

If you split up a daily driven vehicle into ½â€™s where 1 side was LSP’d every 4 months for 10 years & the other half was lightly polished at the same interval with a non-abrasive finishing polish coupled with a non-abrasive finishing pad (i.e. jewelling) which side would be better preserved over the long term?

The side with LSP, but first we need to define "better preserved".



For myself, Better preserved == Longer Residual life.

super micro-marring that’s slowly depleting the appearance of the gloss. The LSP’d side will never correct this super ultra fine micro-marring, thus snowballing the hazing effect, where the regularly polished side will be regularly correcting it.

Any micromarring on the LSP'd side is constantly being filled in waxes/polymers/silicones that are clear and have the same refractive index as the clearcoat, thus creating a smooth and polished surface. :woot:



At the end of ten years, the LSP'd side will be hazed, but it won't be visible from 5ft away. Especially if the car is freshly waxed, or has some QD on it.



Also don't forget that many LSP's have some cleaning abilities, and so will do some polishing of the paint anyways. But the arguments for LSP, still hold if we are talking about a pure non-abrasive product like TW Ice, or Mothers NF Carnauba, etc.

Doing the math and acknowledging the thought that many vehicle manufactures don’t recommend removing any more than ~.5 mils(12.7 microns) of clear before *possible* detrimental UV exposure *could* occur, there’s still tons of clear left to still be on the “safe� side. The upside of this comparison is that the polished finish will look totally better than the just LSP’d side.

Be careful here, there are several issues at play, including the residual life of the clear coat over the next 10 year cycle.



Going into the next ten years, the polished side will have less clearcoat, and thus will fail sooner than the protected side, all else equal.



The best way to protect the paint, is to keep it on the car in the first place.

Which would you rather have?

The side that was regularly waxed with TW Ice Paste. :2thumbs:

 

[SuperBee364]

Your reply is rather odd and while the burden of evidence is on you I will attempt to explain why it doesn't.



Wax doesn't cross link, like many polymer sealants do (and paint), therefore it is, in a nutshell, an oily layer resting on the surface. If you add another layer of wax the solvents present in that wax will replace, not build up or layer, the first application.



Solvents are needed to soften up the wax and make it pliable therefore the thinking is that those same solvents will remove the previous wax layer.



Now if you wish to hold to the thinking that they can layer I must then ask how can you possibly measure that? There is no way to do so. It would seem that the science/chemistry of this all would disagree with the possibility of waxes being layered.



Anthony

That's probably the best and most well-written response I've seen yet about this subject.



I often wonder the same thing about sealants... but I hate to say that, cause it always causes a flame war.

 

[wfedwar]

I don't see where either side has any proof that layering does or does not happen. I also don't see why the "burden of proof" is on either side. Why do so many people state thier opinions and guesses as fact?

 

[SpoiledMan]

I don't see where either side has any proof that layering does or does not happen. I also don't see why the "burden of proof" is on either side. Why do so many people state thier opinions and guesses as fact?

I thought I was the only one thinking this!

 

[Dsoto87]

I don't see where either side has any proof that layering does or does not happen. I also don't see why the "burden of proof" is on either side. Why do so many people state thier opinions and guesses as fact?

I think we've all been guilty of doing that at one time or another.



Besides, how else are we supposed to convey our opinion? This is the internet, its not like you can express tone of voice, etc. Should anthony have put "IMO" in front of every sentence?



He didn't just put any wild argument out there either, he backed it up with statements explaining why he's come to that conclusion .



Atleast he didn't answer the question with another question.

 

[SpoiledMan]

The use of "will" makes it stated as fact.