Apollo Detailing
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Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
kaval said:
Too funny. But all you need to be a professional detailer (or anything else!) is a website and a forum sig, right?
imported_Jakerooni
New member
I honestly think things are going to change here sometime soon for exactly this type of thing. I see alot of professions out there that never needed anything other than a DBA to practice that got slammed by bad reps and are now required to go through some sort of certification or licsencing procedure to operate. (my wife is a massage therapist and they just passed all kinds of new laws about that here in Michigan trying to get away from the "Masuse" type and the real proefessionals that have years of proper training under their belt) I garuntee enough complaint flow into the proper channels and the legislature will most definatly step in and demand action on stuff like this. Personally I think it would be the best thing that ever happend to this industry. Get rid of 99% of the hack. Make people actually train under a "Master" detailer and get certified in which you have to upkeep the certification or face huge fines and penalties if caught practicing without it. Most other professions that are actually taken seriously already have stuff like this in place. And I for one think every single person that gets a shab job done needs to complain until this happens.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Just to play Devil's Advocate Jakerooni, how would someone like yourself or other extant fixed-base or mobile detailers become certified as "masters" in that scenario?
Apollo_Auto
New member
Jakerooni said:
They've stated to do that with the street musicians here (making them get certified and all)... I don't see the point ion it. TBH I can see why industries that deal with humans (like a masseuse) need to be regulated, but on cars? No way. To me it'd just be another thing to tax people for and something else to regulate. The world's full of hacks in every industry and well, that's life. We all get burned sooner or later.
imported_Jakerooni
New member
You have to be certified to work on a car right? To even put tires on a car you have to have a certified mechanic on site. Why should our feild be any different at all? Unless you think this feild is a total joke with no signifigant merit at all why would anyone be against it? If your really good or really willing to learn proper technique you have absoultly nothing to worry about.
And the way it usually goes from what I can tell is the powers that be contact individuals that are widely considered the top of the feild and go through a whole routine of ask and answer. Then they take the complaints and weigh them to what should be the common knowledge. Then they start setting up the "Rules" so to speak. Every state usually sets up their own rules and regualtions. But everything usually ends up in phases of acheivement. Now certian ego's will definatly have to be checked at the door for it all to work but again... so what? Deal with it or find something else to be shady at is my opinion on the matter. I feel I'm damn good at what I do but if it's deemed I have to go to class to pic up some extra skills for a certification so be it.
But the upside to it all is once rules are in place and certification is set prices should go up as well. Now being able to prove to all of the public world that even the govenment thinks our line of work is a real skill and needs all this training will only make customers feel much better about letting you touch their baby. Wether it be a DD or a multi million dollar exotic. And once they feel better about it then they usually feel ok about prices being set like a professional.. I mean alot of us consdier ourselves professionals anyways.. So now this would in the eyes of the public... Prove it... If that makes sense to you guys.
And the way it usually goes from what I can tell is the powers that be contact individuals that are widely considered the top of the feild and go through a whole routine of ask and answer. Then they take the complaints and weigh them to what should be the common knowledge. Then they start setting up the "Rules" so to speak. Every state usually sets up their own rules and regualtions. But everything usually ends up in phases of acheivement. Now certian ego's will definatly have to be checked at the door for it all to work but again... so what? Deal with it or find something else to be shady at is my opinion on the matter. I feel I'm damn good at what I do but if it's deemed I have to go to class to pic up some extra skills for a certification so be it.
But the upside to it all is once rules are in place and certification is set prices should go up as well. Now being able to prove to all of the public world that even the govenment thinks our line of work is a real skill and needs all this training will only make customers feel much better about letting you touch their baby. Wether it be a DD or a multi million dollar exotic. And once they feel better about it then they usually feel ok about prices being set like a professional.. I mean alot of us consdier ourselves professionals anyways.. So now this would in the eyes of the public... Prove it... If that makes sense to you guys.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Jakerooni said:
Well, it doesn't make sense to me, because "mechanic" work is safety related...if improper brake, tire, or suspension work is done it could easily cause an accident resulting in injury/death to the car owner as well as others.
The masseuse thing is also different because it's a health related thing (besides the illegal "massage" parlor angle). There's the possibility of injuring someone, or transmitting disease, or of being a perv. There's tons of industries I'd regulate before detailing, like building contractors.
imported_Jakerooni
New member
Building contractors are very regulated. They most definatly need to be liscenced and insured to "swing a hammer" Thought that was a federal ruling. Might just be a state thing.
Plumbers need to be regulated.. in fact all "Skilled trades" are heavily regualted. With all sorts of requirements needed before you can practice. Not all are "saftey" issues. I feel if you're charging people for money... Calling yourself a professional. And using this as your main source of income then you should be regualted on how you are allowed to do that. Holden here is a very prime example of exactly WHY it should be like that. $4000 for a hack job and burnt mouldings should not only be looked down upon like it has been but it should be illegal. This guy is out $10,000+ and who's going to do anything about it? At least if he was held legally accountable for his actions maybe he would've thought twice about being a jack a$$ and blantantly ripping people off. I really don't see a downside to making all detailers that do this for a living be certified. Just because other professions might need it also dosen't negate the fact that we are getting to a point where we should probably do it as well.
Plumbers need to be regulated.. in fact all "Skilled trades" are heavily regualted. With all sorts of requirements needed before you can practice. Not all are "saftey" issues. I feel if you're charging people for money... Calling yourself a professional. And using this as your main source of income then you should be regualted on how you are allowed to do that. Holden here is a very prime example of exactly WHY it should be like that. $4000 for a hack job and burnt mouldings should not only be looked down upon like it has been but it should be illegal. This guy is out $10,000+ and who's going to do anything about it? At least if he was held legally accountable for his actions maybe he would've thought twice about being a jack a$$ and blantantly ripping people off. I really don't see a downside to making all detailers that do this for a living be certified. Just because other professions might need it also dosen't negate the fact that we are getting to a point where we should probably do it as well.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Jakerooni said:
Well, here in NJ, electricians and plumbers are licensed, but carpentry, roofing/siding, HVAC, things like that, are not, and you can easily get a hack. Of course, if an HVAC installation includes electrical or plumbing (including gas) hookup, then that needs to be done by a licensed individual...of course in a big HVAC firm not everyone will be licensed...and likely the guy working at your house won't be but will be operating under the license umbrella, under "supervision", even if you never see the licensed guy.
Anthony O.
New member
You can't regulate detailers/car washes by a governing body because the main question which can't be answered is......who will be the governing body and who is qualified enough to claim they are qualified enough to be the governing body?
Who is to say what is a "full detail" if I claim it is something different?
What if I don't want to use a certain product line in order to be certified?
Can you imagine the drama on these forums when the egos come into play if they feel that they are more qualified than those who are saying who is and who isn't qualified?
Detailing will never be governed requiring certification until car insurance companies get involved to the point where they offer discounts to policy holders for having their cars maintained by a certified detailer.......but again who will do the certification?
If I have to be certified but I want to charge $500 for a detail but another detailer in Backroad Texas charges only $65 must I lower my prices or does he have to raise his price?
Again, detailing will never be regulated nor governed to the point that it comes under federal or local regulations.
Anthony
Who is to say what is a "full detail" if I claim it is something different?
What if I don't want to use a certain product line in order to be certified?
Can you imagine the drama on these forums when the egos come into play if they feel that they are more qualified than those who are saying who is and who isn't qualified?
Detailing will never be governed requiring certification until car insurance companies get involved to the point where they offer discounts to policy holders for having their cars maintained by a certified detailer.......but again who will do the certification?
If I have to be certified but I want to charge $500 for a detail but another detailer in Backroad Texas charges only $65 must I lower my prices or does he have to raise his price?
Again, detailing will never be regulated nor governed to the point that it comes under federal or local regulations.
Anthony
Setec Astronomy said:
Plumbing and detailing are two different beast's, plumbing has wannabe handy clown hacks and detailing has enthusiasts. In any plumbing forum where licensed plumbers hang out they frown upon giving advice to home owners, handy clowns, etc because of the potential dangers and other risk's involved with improper instalation. A newbie burning his paint with a rotary is not going to kill anyone vs a 100 gallon gas water heater blowing up in a school because the maint guy thought he could plumb.
I don't know what or how but I think their should be some kind of distinction for some of the high level pro's. I had to go through hell to get where im at in the plumbing industry such as grunt work and years of schooling and im also in the process of getting my backflow prevention certification, which plays a huge role in detailing btw. I might post some stuff on that soon. I think that the top notch detailers who have educated themselves and learned from other top notch detailers have gone through similar roads in a different way.
For example, a real pro detailer will be educated on the technology involved in the products he or she uses, paint differences, technique's and the list goes on.
How to distinguish the pro's, I have no idea.
imported_Jakerooni
New member
Anthony Orosco said:
Again every single industry before this that has been regulated ask this very question. Most had the exact same opinion and now look all those questions have been answered and they are all regulated... This isn't hard. You simply pick something... Anything.. and go with it. Then you make revisions as needed when new technology or techniques come along. It's comments like this being the reason I said a lot of "ego's" need to be checked at the door. Don't sit there and whine and ***** and moan about why it can't be and start thinking about why it absoultly should be. Hacks run amuck in the world of detailing. costing people tons of money. Ruining lots of reputations of people that truly put in the countless hours of training and hard work. It's a major problem that needs addressed. And the old saying goes if your not part of the solution you are the problem.
autoconcierge
New member
To answer a question no has raised is Auto Detailing is widely considered a (low skill position) if you were to poll ten people at least eight of them consider us wash jockeys........ it would be better in the long run if we has something such as ASE to set a standard for all, however Anthony brings up the poinant point of who would be the people setting the standards??.
I am always asked why I charge so much by people who find out what I do for a living(in social conversations) "oh you are a detailer... how much to do my daughters camry" well I would need to look at it to determine a price etc... response "why so much I mean the car wash will do it for $ 75.00 dollars", this is what having low standards and expectations brings to the trade, also remember it is easy for anyone to "get into business" with low start up costs and not carry insurance etc......
This is a situation which will probably never change as a whole, I do find that with the advent of detailing sites like this one there is a lot more information available for new guys starting up to do things right out of the gate, but like anything those that move ahead have the work ethic and or talent to sustain quality consistantly over a long period of time.
I am always asked why I charge so much by people who find out what I do for a living(in social conversations) "oh you are a detailer... how much to do my daughters camry" well I would need to look at it to determine a price etc... response "why so much I mean the car wash will do it for $ 75.00 dollars", this is what having low standards and expectations brings to the trade, also remember it is easy for anyone to "get into business" with low start up costs and not carry insurance etc......
This is a situation which will probably never change as a whole, I do find that with the advent of detailing sites like this one there is a lot more information available for new guys starting up to do things right out of the gate, but like anything those that move ahead have the work ethic and or talent to sustain quality consistantly over a long period of time.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
I think the ASE argument is basically flawed. Comparing the certification/licensing of mechanics to detailers is kind of like comparing plumbers/electricians to house painters. Sure, a detailer or a house painter can mess up your property, but it's a bit different than you getting killed because your brakes fail or your wheel falls off or your house burns down from an electrical fire.
imported_Jakerooni
New member
So you basically saying we are a "hack trade" that deserve nothing more than a meaningless reputation and have no real skill involved that should be recongnized then??
autoconcierge
New member
What I said was "something like ase" , in ase you have a standard by which you are tested to get certified then you can put the blue placard on the entrance to your shop.
Look at dealerships, they spend the least amount of their budjet on the detailing dept and it shows, yet people will by a car on emotion when they see a black car in the showroom looking right thus the term "showroom shine".
You will always have those that can.... and those that cannot, seperation of the Men from the Boys fyi.
Look at dealerships, they spend the least amount of their budjet on the detailing dept and it shows, yet people will by a car on emotion when they see a black car in the showroom looking right thus the term "showroom shine".
You will always have those that can.... and those that cannot, seperation of the Men from the Boys fyi.
imported_rydawg1
New member
Even in the A.S.E feild there are tons of hacks. Being certified will not stop some detailers from being careless. Can a careless person pass a test? yes..
Lets say all detailers need to get certified. Every dealership in America will go out and be the very first to be certified, then it will get ugly. Seeing that no ones life or health is in danger, they will be handing them out like candy on halloween.
Lets say all detailers need to get certified. Every dealership in America will go out and be the very first to be certified, then it will get ugly. Seeing that no ones life or health is in danger, they will be handing them out like candy on halloween.
autoconcierge
New member
Ryan I agree, the only thing you can do is bring the public's education level up about the right way to do things. The recent Autoweek article which has autopians in it helps the cause, along with all the pub Paul Dalton has recieved in changing the expectations of what a professional auto detailing entity really operates like.
Funny the crappy weather has afforded all of us time to be on the forum right now, big storm for you east coast guys right now I see as I am talking with Dave presently(street dreams detail dsms) and he is snowed in in North Jersey.
Crappy weather in Northern California as well(rain) as soon as it stops I will not get a day off for a looooonnnngggg time.
Funny the crappy weather has afforded all of us time to be on the forum right now, big storm for you east coast guys right now I see as I am talking with Dave presently(street dreams detail dsms) and he is snowed in in North Jersey.
Crappy weather in Northern California as well(rain) as soon as it stops I will not get a day off for a looooonnnngggg time.
Junebug
JAFO
Look at it this way, my wife is a teacher. She busted her butt in college, worked hard and now has the respect of students, staff and a list of parents that want her to be their kid's teacher. She's licensed by the state. Now, in the same school, there are other teachers that just aren't that good. We moved our oldest daughter out of a school when she was in the third grade because of the teacher she had and the principal eventually fired. All licensed - but no where near the same. Even schools in the same county are not the same, why? - people are not the same, we're not parts on an assembly line.
In my opinion - we are like old school craftsmen. You're as good as your reputation and no license, certification or degree will ever change that.
In my opinion - we are like old school craftsmen. You're as good as your reputation and no license, certification or degree will ever change that.
imported_Jakerooni
New member
Will a certification help you build skills as a detailer?? Probably not. however when a customer is looking for someone to take care of their $100,000 pride and joy do you think it will help them in making a descion on who to call first? Its a very valid way to stand out above all the hack and weekenders out there. Will hacks still exsist? Sure but now they stand out more. Just like with everything else we have to choose services for. If I don't have a mechanic on hand or a plumber the very first thing I do is look for certification. I know I can't possibly be the only one that does that. And I don't do it because i think for a second they do things "Safer" than the shade tree guys. I just feel they've had more training are more up to date than other guys and maybe just know more than those that are not certified. I know it's generalization on the subject but that's how my and many others minds work when it comes to choosing new things that we previously haven't had to choose before.